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Can you do a Masters or PhD in nursing?

This is just for clarification really. I didn't get the right UKCAT score to do medicine so I'm thinking of doing a Masters or PhD in nursing (if such a thing exists) as I don't really fancy just being a bog standard 3 year nurse. I want to aim that little bit higher! Many thanks.
Original post by ceb_96x
This is just for clarification really. I didn't get the right UKCAT score to do medicine so I'm thinking of doing a Masters or PhD in nursing (if such a thing exists) as I don't really fancy just being a bog standard 3 year nurse. I want to aim that little bit higher! Many thanks.


You have absolutely no idea about nursing. Nursing undergraduate degrees are not 'bog standard' and you need to have one to take a master's or PhD, as you need to be a registered nurse and you need to have several years' of experience as working as a nurse to be eligible. The master's and PhD programmes do not qualify you to be a nurse so you can't just convert from another degree; they are for registered nurses who want to extend their knowledge of the work they already do or might like to do in the future.

Some of the very best nurses (sisters, matrons, clinical directors, etc) 'only' have the bachelor's degree. The Nursing and Midwifery Council requires undergraduate nursing students to undertake 2300 hours of clinical placements and 2300 hours of theory over the 3 years of the undergraduate degree to enter the register as a qualified nurse. Once you have a degree in nursing, the NHS doesn't care whether you have a more advanced degree to get promoted; you can work your way up into management or senior roles from just doing your job and showing what you're capable of over the years.
(edited 9 years ago)
Original post by ceb_96x
This is just for clarification really. I didn't get the right UKCAT score to do medicine so I'm thinking of doing a Masters or PhD in nursing (if such a thing exists) as I don't really fancy just being a bog standard 3 year nurse. I want to aim that little bit higher! Many thanks.


Hey,

I work for the NHS, in recruitment until very recently. The NHS in general is really, really keen is get nurses into the management roles, when you qualify as a nurse you go in at Band 5 straight away usually (£21,478, not a bad starting salary bearing in mind the degree is also free). Then you can go onto senior nurse roles, clinical team leader roles, etc.

See this link >http://www.leadershipacademy.nhs.uk/grow/frontline-nursing-and-midwifery-programme/<

The other thing, and I myself was surprised by this, is that the NHS doesn't really care for academia that much in healthcare practice roles. For example, they wouldn't really care that you have a Master's - and definitely not a PhD as that really is reserved for people who want to lecture tbh - you would move up quicker with the experience. If you can, you could do it part time, but if you wait and work up often the NHS will actually fund you to do any extra study needed if you impress with your work.

P.s. I've seen nursing graduates on similar salaries to doctors if that helps, you must be disappointed about your UKCAT, but there is a different IMO between the nursing students who barely scrape their BBC to get into uni and might only ever stay at Band 5, and other students who are more intelligent but choose to go into nursing and end up with the top jobs.
(edited 9 years ago)
Original post by Pectorac
You have absolutely no idea about nursing. Nursing undergraduate degrees are not 'bog standard' and you need to have one to take a master's or PhD, as you need to be a registered nurse and you need to have several years' of experience as working as a nurse to be eligible. The master's and PhD programmes do not qualify you to be a nurse so you can't just convert from another degree; they are for registered nurses who want to extend their knowledge of the work they already do or might like to do in the future.

Some of the very best nurses (sisters, matrons, clinical directors, etc) 'only' have the bachelor's degree. The Nursing and Midwifery Council requires undergraduate nursing students to undertake 2300 hours of clinical placements and 2300 hours of theory over the 3 years of the undergraduate degree to enter the register as a qualified nurse. Once you have a degree in nursing, the NHS doesn't care whether you have a more advanced degree to get promoted; you can work your way up into management or senior roles from just doing your job and showing what you're capable of over the years.


You can do a 2 year nursing conversion course with another degree though.
Original post by infairverona

P.s. I've seen nursing graduates on similar salaries to doctors if that helps, you must be disappointed about your UKCAT, but there is a different IMO between the nursing students who barely scrape their BBC to get into uni and might only ever stay at Band 5, and other students who are more intelligent but choose to go into nursing and end up with the top jobs.


Considering many universities are asking for grades like ABB (Brighton), BBB (KCL), etc, it is not a case of 'scraping' BBC. A-level grades have nothing to do with how well you perform as a nurse at all; you learn everything you need to learn on the degree. Nobody cares if you got a C in A-level biology when you've passed your university biology exams. Considering the amount of band 7s and 8s who did the diplomas of higher education back in the day when it wasn't a degree course, how can you say that anything to do with A-levels indicates how well one will do at nursing?
(edited 9 years ago)
Original post by Pectorac
Considering many universities are asking for grades like ABB (Brighton), BBB (KCL), etc, it is not a case of 'scraping' BBC. A-level grades have nothing to do with how well you perform as a nurse at all; you learn everything you need to learn on the degree. Nobody cares if you got a C in A-level biology when you've passed your university biology exams. Considering the amount of band 7s and 8s who did the diplomas of higher education back in the day when it wasn't a degree course, how can you say that anything to do with A-levels and the degree indicates how well one will do at nursing?


Well one of my friends did a nursing degree at Southampton and she got BCC and got in. Hardly the best of grades. But she then was moaning about having to learn lots of different drugs and working out drug calculations etc. You can definitely get in for nursing with BBC as I said, I think there is a difference between the students who get As, than the ones who scrape through with their Bs and Cs. Even though nursing is ultimately a caring profession, the nature of it has changed and you still need to be able to study to get a good grade in the theory elements.

And tbh I don't know why you think people on band 7 and 8 who did the old diploma works in your favour here; the diploma was clearly not fit for purpose and that's why it's been replaced by the degree, which is more strenuous being a higher level of qualification, but of course they always needed band 7s and 8s so it made sense back then for the diploma grads to take those roles. That doesn't mean if you had to promote someone who recently qualified from the diploma and recently qualified from the degree, that the diploma student would still get that role today.
Original post by infairverona
Well one of my friends did a nursing degree at Southampton and she got BCC and got in. Hardly the best of grades. But she then was moaning about having to learn lots of different drugs and working out drug calculations etc. You can definitely get in for nursing with BBC as I said, I think there is a difference between the students who get As, than the ones who scrape through with their Bs and Cs. Even though nursing is ultimately a caring profession, the nature of it has changed and you still need to be able to study to get a good grade in the theory elements.

And tbh I don't know why you think people on band 7 and 8 who did the old diploma works in your favour here; the diploma was clearly not fit for purpose and that's why it's been replaced by the degree, which is more strenuous being a higher level of qualification, but of course they always needed band 7s and 8s so it made sense back then for the diploma grads to take those roles. That doesn't mean if you had to promote someone who recently qualified from the diploma and recently qualified from the degree, that the diploma student would still get that role today.


Southampton are well known for lowering their offers for nursing if you take more than one science subject at A-level; nowhere else does this. Are you saying that all the band 7s and 8s and no longer fit for purpose for their roles and should all have to go back to university to finish a degree? You clearly don't work in the NHS. The diploma versus the degree makes no difference as to whether a band 5 would be promoted to band 6, etc. If the diploma was not fit for purpose, why was it only phased out completely in 2013? You could still apply and complete the diploma to become a registered nurse before then.
Original post by Pectorac
Southampton are well known for lowering their offers for nursing if you take more than one science subject at A-level; nowhere else does this. Are you saying that all the band 7s and 8s and no longer fit for purpose for their roles and should all have to go back to university to finish a degree? You clearly don't work in the NHS. The diploma versus the degree makes no difference as to whether a band 5 would be promoted to band 6, etc. If the diploma was not fit for purpose, why was it only phased out completely in 2013?



I'm not saying the band 7 and 8s are no longer fit for purpose for their roles. I said the diploma is obviously no longer considered fit for practice or it wouldn't have been replaced by the degree, which is more robust than the diploma. Just because it took a long time to phase out and wasn't done in a timely manner doesn't lessen its significance.

Haha yes I obviously have lied about my job on a student forum...of course. Seeing as you haven't even done your nursing degree yet, I think I'll disregard your opinion on this one.
(edited 9 years ago)
Reply 8
Avatar for Bluecord
Bluecord
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Original post by infairverona
I'm not saying the band 7 and 8s are no longer fit for purpose for their roles. I said the diploma is obviously no longer considered fit for practice or it wouldn't have been replaced by the degree, which is more robust than the diploma. Just because it took a long time to phase out and wasn't done in a timely manner doesn't lessen its significance.

Haha yes I obviously have lied about my job on a student forum...of course. Seeing as you haven't even done your nursing degree yet, I think I'll disregard your opinion on this one.


Well I'm a third year student nurse and I've never seen such rubbish. I have worked in the wards, the operating theatres, the community and other areas, and I now work in A&E (you can see my assessment of practice document if you really want). Most of the managers have the diploma, as do most of the matrons, etc. If the diploma is no longer fit for practice, why are they allowed to continue working? As the other poster said, why will graduates of the 2013 diploma be allowed to work alongside the degree cohorts if it's no longer a qualification fit for practice?

The degree is challenging and there have been times where it has driven me insane, but I immensely value the diplomas other people have gained, who are excellent nurses. The degrees the original poster talks about would not qualify them to enter the nursing register, as you need to have the undergraduate degree and the proof you have worked the required number of hours in clinical placements. Many nurses I've worked with have been studying master's degrees alongside their clinical work, and they needed many years of clinical experience to even be considered for the master's degree. Many band 6, 7 and 8 nurses are either supplementary or independent prescribers who can prescribe either a certain selection of drugs, or anything a doctor can, and funnily enough most of these people have the old diplomas.

Yes it's moved to an all degree profession and personally I think that's the way forward at this time, but don't undermine the work thousands of amazing nurses have already done.
(edited 9 years ago)
Original post by Bluecord
Well I'm a third year student nurse and I've never seen such rubbish. I have worked in the wards, the operating theatres, the community and other areas, and I now work in A&E (you can see my assessment of practice document if you really want). Most of the managers have the diploma, as do most of the matrons, etc. If the diploma is no longer fit for practice, why are they allowed to continue working? As the other poster said, why will graduates of the 2013 diploma be allowed to work alongside the degree cohorts of it's no longer a qualification for for practice?

The degree is challenging and there have been times where it has driven me insane, but I immensely value the diplomas other people have gained, who are excellent nurses. The degrees the original poster talks about would not qualify them to enter the nursing register. Many nurses I've worked with have been studying master's degrees alongside their clinical work, and they needed many years of clinical experience to even be considered for the degree.


I'm not as cynical as the other poster, I don't need to see your document to believe you. Similarly I could post my work lanyard and ID card but I don't feel the need to prove that to some random teenager on the internet, to be honest. My main point to the OP was that experience as a nurse is valued more than a postgraduate degree would be - true, seeing as you need the experience to get onto the postgrad in the first place - and that you can work your way up without doing one. Which is why I posted the link for the frontline scheme, and I notice that even the NHS graduate management scheme seems keen to recruit nursing graduates.

About the rest of your post though - of course they're allowed to continue working. Those employees will have years of experience behind them. But obviously the NMC no longer feels that the diploma is enough preparation for new nurses or why else did they replace it with the degree entirely? They haven't continued to allow both as an option, and even when they phased it out in 2011 and both were available in 2012 it was difficult to find because so many institutions just scrapped it and got the degree straight away. I am not saying that the people who did the diploma are not fit for practice, what I am saying is that the NMC clearly decided that the diploma in itself was not enough preparation for practice, and so brought the degree in instead.

I am aware the degree is challenging, and it is a higher level qualification than the diploma. Obviously the extra year of placements and knowledge is designed to make you a better 'new' nurse. The OP didn't say they didn't intend to do the BSc first, I'm sure the OP is aware that to get onto the MSc or PhD you would usually need a BSc and experience first, as is normally the case for most clinical postgraduate degrees. But where I work we are very keen to get nurses into our clinical team leader roles, and even our clinical operations and senior operations roles, and usually these candidates won't have postgraduate degrees at all.

[e] I did not intend to undermine the work of the diploma nurses, I apologise if that is how it came across. I am just pointing out that nursing has moved on in recent years to now require a degree.
(edited 9 years ago)
Just to add a bit more to this, a lot of the nurses where I work now have to get an MSc to remain in their speciality, they've been allowed to do it through distance learning though whilst working though. The older ones are a bit miffed because they've done the job for years! The heads of nursing/nurse consultants often have a masters too (I'm not sure if it's all of them but I know a lot do). The chief nurse at the trust I work for did masters in other areas.
I'm not a nurse, but I have huge admiration for them after working alongside them as a HCA. It is a challenging job and you need more than good grades to do it well - I had six As at A-Level (this was in the days before A*) and went to Cambridge...and I know I wouldn't be a successful nurse! Grades aren't everything. The nurses I know all have skills and attributes I don't have. To be honest I don't think healthcare in any form is the right profession for someone who is just looking for a bit of prestige, and who would look down on other staff as having 'bog standard' qualifications. Humility and respect are important in this field, as is the ability to recognise that not all the vital skills are measured by A-level grades. In the dementia ward where I worked, nurses had far more patient contact than doctors; they were the ones who were with the patients 24/7, and consequently they were in a position to make a real therapeutic difference to these people's lives. A good nurse can really transform someone's hospital experience for the better. It's a huge responsibility to have and you shouldn't go into this area unless you want to shoulder it.
Original post by opalescent
I'm not a nurse, but I have huge admiration for them after working alongside them as a HCA. It is a challenging job and you need more than good grades to do it well - I had six As at A-Level (this was in the days before A*) and went to Cambridge...and I know I wouldn't be a successful nurse! Grades aren't everything. The nurses I know all have skills and attributes I don't have. To be honest I don't think healthcare in any form is the right profession for someone who is just looking for a bit of prestige, and who would look down on other staff as having 'bog standard' qualifications. Humility and respect are important in this field, as is the ability to recognise that not all the vital skills are measured by A-level grades. In the dementia ward where I worked, nurses had far more patient contact than doctors; they were the ones who were with the patients 24/7, and consequently they were in a position to make a real therapeutic difference to these people's lives. A good nurse can really transform someone's hospital experience for the better. It's a huge responsibility to have and you shouldn't go into this area unless you want to shoulder it.


So true, I was shocked by the gaps in the knowledge of some of the nurses when it came to sample testing techniques (who are earning over double what I am) but I couldn't do their job ever. I'm no good with patients and they usually confuse me for a doctor and find me unapproachable because I'm just not great around people. A girl doing the same job and visiting the same patients said she couldn't get away from them because they all wanted a chat. I already knew I'd make a terrible nurse because of my people skills (or lack of!) but the work I did on wards really confirmed that for me.

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