EU attempts to use centralised power to crush separatism-warning sign?
Does anyone else feel that their attempts to meddle and crush many Scottish and Catalan dreams, (regardless of where you, personally, stand on those issues), points to wider trends of how it will operate as a centralized, bureaucratic monolith that has no regard for the democratic wishes many of it's people?
I know that the populaces were/are split, but let it be decided within their own province and nation. The way they wielded interference with such arrogance and entitlement really ****ed me off. It was like some period drama with a cartoon oily, smug French civil servant. And I also don't like the way they tout social compassion and leftism, whilst signing this trade deal with the US which basically allows them to take to bid for health contracts, corporate deals etc. I think I do not sniff any much vaunted high mindedness and noble vision, in fact it's looking increasingly like a heaven for corporate interests, self serving bureaucrats and meglomaniacs, plus cynical careerists with no concern for their own nations.
I know that the populaces were/are split, but let it be decided within their own province and nation. The way they wielded interference with such arrogance and entitlement really ****ed me off. It was like some period drama with a cartoon oily, smug French civil servant. And I also don't like the way they tout social compassion and leftism, whilst signing this trade deal with the US which basically allows them to take to bid for health contracts, corporate deals etc. I think I do not sniff any much vaunted high mindedness and noble vision, in fact it's looking increasingly like a heaven for corporate interests, self serving bureaucrats and meglomaniacs, plus cynical careerists with no concern for their own nations.
Original post by Chillaxer
Does anyone else feel that their attempts to meddle and crush many Scottish and Catalan dreams, (regardless of where you, personally, stand on those issues), points to wider trends of how it will operate as a centralized, bureaucratic monolith that has no regard for the democratic wishes many of it's people?
I know that the populaces were/are split, but let it be decided within their own province and nation. The way they wielded interference with such arrogance and entitlement really ****ed me off. It was like some period drama with a cartoon oily, smug French civil servant. And I also don't like the way they tout social compassion and leftism, whilst signing this trade deal with the US which basically allows them to take to bid for health contracts, corporate deals etc. I think I do not sniff any much vaunted high mindedness and noble vision, in fact it's looking increasingly like a heaven for corporate interests, self serving bureaucrats and meglomaniacs, plus cynical careerists with no concern for their own nations.
I know that the populaces were/are split, but let it be decided within their own province and nation. The way they wielded interference with such arrogance and entitlement really ****ed me off. It was like some period drama with a cartoon oily, smug French civil servant. And I also don't like the way they tout social compassion and leftism, whilst signing this trade deal with the US which basically allows them to take to bid for health contracts, corporate deals etc. I think I do not sniff any much vaunted high mindedness and noble vision, in fact it's looking increasingly like a heaven for corporate interests, self serving bureaucrats and meglomaniacs, plus cynical careerists with no concern for their own nations.
Everyone with sense knows that the EU is a power hungry modern version of the Soviet Union. Its exactly why Ireland's referendum results were ignored and the Europrats in Brussels at the top end are elected on a basis quite out of our reach. Nobody votes for the EU President in the way that the President of America is voted for. No, instead, the pro EU government votes for the EU President from an option of....oh wait....pro EU candidates.
The EUSSR wants one flag, one anthem and you to be European, not British, not English/Scottish/Welsh or Irish, but European. Your passport says European Union for that reason first and foremost. You can be proud to be from the STATE of England but your nationality, in their eyes, should be European first and foremost just as Americans are Americans. They will try to convince you that Russia is an expansionist state but Russia is simply reacting to the political expansionism of the EU. The EU has already swallowed up Baltic countries who were once under Russia's rule. Putin is merely trying to put an end to it by fighting back over Ukraine. Instead though, the EU sees this as a slight against their expansionist vision for the EU superstate and therefore Putin is the root of all evil.
The EU champagne socialists will have you living under communist rule. If thats what you want then continue on but don't expect Marxist supporters like Mr Miliband to care about you when you're living in an EU superstate. The only things they care about are themselves, their warped ideologies and sense of entitlement.
Original post by Chillaxer
Does anyone else feel that their attempts to meddle and crush many Scottish and Catalan dreams, (regardless of where you, personally, stand on those issues), points to wider trends of how it will operate as a centralized, bureaucratic monolith that has no regard for the democratic wishes many of it's people?
I know that the populaces were/are split, but let it be decided within their own province and nation. The way they wielded interference with such arrogance and entitlement really ****ed me off. It was like some period drama with a cartoon oily, smug French civil servant. And I also don't like the way they tout social compassion and leftism, whilst signing this trade deal with the US which basically allows them to take to bid for health contracts, corporate deals etc. I think I do not sniff any much vaunted high mindedness and noble vision, in fact it's looking increasingly like a heaven for corporate interests, self serving bureaucrats and meglomaniacs, plus cynical careerists with no concern for their own nations.
I know that the populaces were/are split, but let it be decided within their own province and nation. The way they wielded interference with such arrogance and entitlement really ****ed me off. It was like some period drama with a cartoon oily, smug French civil servant. And I also don't like the way they tout social compassion and leftism, whilst signing this trade deal with the US which basically allows them to take to bid for health contracts, corporate deals etc. I think I do not sniff any much vaunted high mindedness and noble vision, in fact it's looking increasingly like a heaven for corporate interests, self serving bureaucrats and meglomaniacs, plus cynical careerists with no concern for their own nations.
The EU is a state like any other, it's not in their interest for current members to break apart
They don't tout leftism, the EPP used to contain the Tories and currently selects most of the important positions. Indeed, they've made several nationalisations illegal. They are very much in bed with big business.
(edited 9 years ago)
Original post by Chillaxer
Can a large federation be effective and deliver for it's citizens?
Yes, the USA. Germany. Spain (pre-recession the worlds 8th largest economy). Mexico. Canada. Australia.
Original post by Rakas21
Yes, the USA. Germany. Spain (pre-recession the worlds 8th largest economy). Mexico. Canada. Australia.
Germany and the US aren't really comparable. Pretty much one culture and language with a president they all elect. When will the EU be like that, unless everyone takes on English fast(and the French and Germans don't want that)
It's no secret the EU as a whole cares not for the wants and needs of any given region and it's population. Look at how greece was thrown under the bus for the sake of the terminally sick Euro, or as mentioned the referendums that shot down the EU Lisbon Treaty.
The EU at it's core is a nation building exercise, from it's beginning it's achieving that constant fevered dream of a unified Europe by means other than war. Problem is that the current method still hasn't won the European public over and thus they are having to power ahead even without widespread endorsement by the people, even if their intentions originate from a 'good' place.
I foresee an EU collapse in the coming decades, unless something magical like a wake-up occurs and the EU reforms to a loose trade and cooperation treaty organization.
The EU at it's core is a nation building exercise, from it's beginning it's achieving that constant fevered dream of a unified Europe by means other than war. Problem is that the current method still hasn't won the European public over and thus they are having to power ahead even without widespread endorsement by the people, even if their intentions originate from a 'good' place.
I foresee an EU collapse in the coming decades, unless something magical like a wake-up occurs and the EU reforms to a loose trade and cooperation treaty organization.
Original post by Rakas21
They don't tout leftism, the EPP used to contain the Tories and currently selects most of the important positions. Indeed, they've made several nationalisations illegal. They are very much in bed with big business.
They don't tout leftism, the EPP used to contain the Tories and currently selects most of the important positions. Indeed, they've made several nationalisations illegal. They are very much in bed with big business.
Add to that that the hard left in Europe are generally at least soft Eurosceptics. Even in the UK, it's easy to reel off a list of hard-lefties adamantly opposed to the EU - Tony Benn, Michael Foot, Dennis Skinner, Bob Crow, Arthur Scargill, Tommy Sheridan, etc.
Original post by Studentus-anonymous
I foresee an EU collapse in the coming decades, unless something magical like a wake-up occurs and the EU reforms to a loose trade and cooperation treaty organization.
I foresee an EU collapse in the coming decades, unless something magical like a wake-up occurs and the EU reforms to a loose trade and cooperation treaty organization.
Wouldn't an acceptance of English as the global language and the ~French and Germans not blocking us from pushing it harder as the common language go a long way in aiding integration but also uniting citizens behind a common cause. After all, language is a key thing in common identity.
Original post by anarchism101
Add to that that the hard left in Europe are generally at least soft Eurosceptics. Even in the UK, it's easy to reel off a list of hard-lefties adamantly opposed to the EU - Tony Benn, Michael Foot, Dennis Skinner, Bob Crow, Arthur Scargill, Tommy Sheridan, etc.
Good for them. They haven't fallen for the bull and the cliched leftie, anyone against it is a bigot rubbish.
As much as I don't like the EU I can't say I noticed much interference with the referenda. They were actually quite reticent to say that secessionist states would not be automatic members, something which I think it quite uncontroversial in law.
Original post by Sanctimonious
Everyone with sense knows that the EU is a power hungry modern version of the Soviet Union. Its exactly why Ireland's referendum results were ignored and the Europrats in Brussels at the top end are elected on a basis quite out of our reach. Nobody votes for the EU President in the way that the President of America is voted for. No, instead, the pro EU government votes for the EU President from an option of....oh wait....pro EU candidates.
The EUSSR wants one flag, one anthem and you to be European, not British, not English/Scottish/Welsh or Irish, but European. Your passport says European Union for that reason first and foremost. You can be proud to be from the STATE of England but your nationality, in their eyes, should be European first and foremost just as Americans are Americans. They will try to convince you that Russia is an expansionist state but Russia is simply reacting to the political expansionism of the EU. The EU has already swallowed up Baltic countries who were once under Russia's rule. Putin is merely trying to put an end to it by fighting back over Ukraine. Instead though, the EU sees this as a slight against their expansionist vision for the EU superstate and therefore Putin is the root of all evil.
The EU champagne socialists will have you living under communist rule. If thats what you want then continue on but don't expect Marxist supporters like Mr Miliband to care about you when you're living in an EU superstate. The only things they care about are themselves, their warped ideologies and sense of entitlement.
The EUSSR wants one flag, one anthem and you to be European, not British, not English/Scottish/Welsh or Irish, but European. Your passport says European Union for that reason first and foremost. You can be proud to be from the STATE of England but your nationality, in their eyes, should be European first and foremost just as Americans are Americans. They will try to convince you that Russia is an expansionist state but Russia is simply reacting to the political expansionism of the EU. The EU has already swallowed up Baltic countries who were once under Russia's rule. Putin is merely trying to put an end to it by fighting back over Ukraine. Instead though, the EU sees this as a slight against their expansionist vision for the EU superstate and therefore Putin is the root of all evil.
The EU champagne socialists will have you living under communist rule. If thats what you want then continue on but don't expect Marxist supporters like Mr Miliband to care about you when you're living in an EU superstate. The only things they care about are themselves, their warped ideologies and sense of entitlement.
EU-bashers can't have it both ways. The proposed constitutional changes called for an EU President to be directly elected. This was opposed by Eurosceptics because it would 'strengthen the EU'. Er, yes it probably would. So how come you are now complaining that the President is unelected? Not to mention that there is no 'EU President' anyway. There's a Commission President and a Council President. No EU President.
Sovereignty and nationalism haven't exactly been great in much of European history and they certainly weren't good things in the 20th Century.
Most of the EU currently has a right of centre government, so much for your theory that it is dominated by 'champagne socialists'.
Original post by Observatory
As much as I don't like the EU I can't say I noticed much interference with the referenda. They were actually quite reticent to say that secessionist states would not be automatic members, something which I think it quite uncontroversial in law.
Arguably the rise of nationalism in Scotland and other parts of the EU has been fuelled by the policy of 'Europe of the Regions', which was designed to try to lower the extent to which citizens identified with nation states. The policy has backfired and (predictably to people who think these things through properly) caused a surge in nationalism. The Commission no more wants petty nationalist mini-states than it does the traditional big nationalisms, so they don't exactly welcome the full break up of the Big Members.
I suspect the EU will be having a bit of a rethink about their approach to the member state nationalisms generally.
Original post by Fullofsurprises
I think it has very little to do with any explicit EU initiative, but I do think the existence of the EU serves to dramatically reduce the cost of these sorts of secessions. If the EU is really the state, not the UK, then leaving the UK presents little disadvantage provided the new state is still in the EU; indeed little change at all, which was Salmond's argument. Meanwhile, smaller states are overrepresented in the EU institutions, so there's a definite advantage to secession.
It's not a question of what the EU says, but of what the EU is.
Original post by Fullofsurprises
It's a fair criticism, but I think that most 'EU-bashers' are simply too inarticulate to present their real opposition: that in the EU the bureaucracy has primacy, and the democratic institutions exist to lend it legitimacy. In other words, the democratic institutions have been created by, and function for the benefit of the permanent civil service whereas in the traditional Westminster system it is the other way around. People sense, although perhaps do not so explicitly understand, that the EU is becoming a "constitutional democracy", in the sense of constitutional monarchy: a state with a figurehead democracy in which real power resides elsewhere.
Of course this idea is not exactly new: the former communist world including the USSR pretty much all operated like this. Even North Korea has its figurehead constitutional democracy. In this regard, the EU does resemble them, but I think the EU's constitutional democracy is still more akin to George III than their Elizabeth II.
(edited 9 years ago)
Original post by Chillaxer
Wouldn't an acceptance of English as the global language and the ~French and Germans not blocking us from pushing it harder as the common language go a long way in aiding integration but also uniting citizens behind a common cause. After all, language is a key thing in common identity.
You're technically right, but good luck convincing the French and Germans or other EU states to give up their languages. :P
Original post by Observatory
I think it has very little to do with any explicit EU initiative, but I do think the existence of the EU serves to dramatically reduce the cost of these sorts of secessions. If the EU is really the state, not the UK, then leaving the UK presents little disadvantage provided the new state is still in the EU; indeed little change at all, which was Salmond's argument. Meanwhile, smaller states are overrepresented in the EU institutions, so there's a definite advantage to secession.
It's not a question of what the EU says, but of what the EU is.
It's not a question of what the EU says, but of what the EU is.
I think the EU likes the rich countries to be big and united because there's a better case to have them be the net contributors than the tiny but rich Luxembourg. In addition while my conversations may not be representative, the impression i get from Europeans who are pro-EU is that the UK is akin to the prize that will come around to their view eventually. Thus for the EU it's better to have a United Kingdom come around and contribute than it is for little regions to break off, i imagine Germany and France in particular would prefer a large country to bear the weight with them.
Original post by Studentus-anonymous
You're technically right, but good luck convincing the French and Germans or other EU states to give up their languages. :P
To be honest Spanish is more than German and French given that it's widely spoken outside the Americas (though French is spoken in some African nations - many of which are teaching English though).
Personally i'd be quite happy to limit second languages in the EU to English, French and Spanish.
Original post by Fullofsurprises
EU-bashers can't have it both ways. The proposed constitutional changes called for an EU President to be directly elected. This was opposed by Eurosceptics because it would 'strengthen the EU'. Er, yes it probably would. So how come you are now complaining that the President is unelected? Not to mention that there is no 'EU President' anyway. There's a Commission President and a Council President. No EU President.
All unelected fat cats and we can have it both ways. Absolute shamocracy.
Sovereignty and nationalism haven't exactly been great in much of European history and they certainly weren't good things in the 20th Century.
So Scandinavian countries aren't examples of it being great then? What utter tripe.
Most of the EU currently has a right of centre government, so much for your theory that it is dominated by 'champagne socialists'.
THATS WHAT A CHAMPAGNE SOCIALIST IS. A champagne socialist is one that pretends to be a socialist but really isn't. They live the high life whilst pretending to be all for us when in reality its easily said when you're in their privileged position. The EU is full of these as is Labour. How much is Milibands house worth? How much is he earning? Oh wait yep thought so.
If you love the EU so much then you're free to move their just before we withdraw. Im sure you'll take up the offer when the time comes. Oh wait, no you wont.
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