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Reply 40
Agent Smith
And many women are extremely grateful for that fact.


Many unborn aren't.
Reply 41
rock_eleven
I will highlight the problem then:





The second quote strongly implies that you are claiming abortion is genocide.

The first quote has part of your definition of genocide as the extermination of an entire group. Abortion is not the extermination all unborns, nor is it intended to be.

Abortion is not genocide, according to your own definition. You must either revise your definition of genocide, or claim that abortion is infact the extermination of an entire group, that is, unborn children.
Can you address this please?


It is the destruction of the unwanted unborn.
Reply 42
Abortion is the systematic and planned extermination of the entire unwanted unborn ethnic group.
Reply 43
Agent Smith
"Genocide" is the wrong word to use in these situations, though. It's too specific. As I said above, the etymological derivation of the word ties it unavoidably to race. "Genos" is a race.


Black people make up many races, yet it is still genocide to kill all black people, therefore your comment is void.
Reply 44
I agree with a woman and mans right to decide on an abortion.
Love Life
Abortion is the systematic and planned extermination of the entire unwanted unborn ethnic group.


right, we can indeed further group them as unwanted unborns. This is a very weak candidate for the "genocide" label, though, surely. You could classify all killings as genocide based on this level of classification. Prisoner execution is the killing of the entire group of people sentenced to death - do you call that genocide? What about if I kill my neighbours, who are characterised and classified by being objects of my desire to kill. Genocide?

Both of those examples or no more or less unreasonable than proposing that the killing of the group "unwanted unborn children" is genocide.

It renders the concept of genocide completely obsolete as it is doesn't tell us anything about those killed or the reasons.
Love Life
Black people make up many races, yet it is still genocide to kill all black people, therefore your comment is void.
Both "black people" AND the various groups that form that overarching group are regarded as races. The same is true of all races, because all have subgroups. So it's genocide to wipe out all Koreans, as well as it being genocide to wipe out all Asians.

If you go up a step, you can add in the fact that wiping out all humans is genocide; "black", "white" and other labels then become the subgroups, and "Scandinavian", "Korean" and the rest become sub-sub-groups...
Love Life
Many unborn aren't.
OK, let's take a meritocratic approach. What does the average woman contribute to society? Could be just about anything, really, but the point is she contributes. What does the average unborn foetus contribute to society?

Leaving aside the fact that the unborn foetus is incapable, and will remain so for quite some time, of feeling gratitude.
How are all the unborn meant to relate to each other if they don't know each other exists?!
Reply 49
rock_eleven
right, we can indeed further group them as unwanted unborns. This is a very weak candidate for the "genocide" label, though, surely. You could classify all killings as genocide based on this level of classification. Prisoner execution is the killing of the entire group of people sentenced to death - do you call that genocide? What about if I kill my neighbours, who are characterised and classified by being objects of my desire to kill. Genocide?

Both of those examples or no more or less unreasonable than proposing that the killing of the group "unwanted unborn children" is genocide.

It renders the concept of genocide completely obsolete as it is doesn't tell us anything about those killed or the reasons.


No, you would need to prove those cases where as a result of unwanted lives, and should you do so, you would also need to prove it was systematic and planned.

The classification I gave is perfect and although you strongly disagree, no amount of desire can change facts.
Reply 50
croissantfever
How are all the unborn meant to relate to each other if they don't know each other exists?!


Are you claiming that all Jews knew each other, or are you denying the Jewish genocide of WW2?
Love Life
Are you claiming that all Jews knew each other, or are you denying the Jewish genocide of WW2.Are you claiming that all Jews knew each other, or are you denying the Jewish genocide of WW2.


jews knew jews, hence they had a sense of community. Do any unborns know any other unborns?
Reply 52
Agent Smith
OK, let's take a meritocratic approach. What does the average woman contribute to society? Could be just about anything, really, but the point is she contributes. What does the average unborn foetus contribute to society?

Leaving aside the fact that the unborn foetus is incapable, and will remain so for quite some time, of feeling gratitude.


What does the average criminal do for society? What does the average rapist do for society, yet we do not even kill these, and the innocent ones you seem fit for destruction?

That is a strange thought process, besides do you realise that foetuses grow up to be people like Bill gates, Mother Theresa, and other members of society that do good, your argument is the weakest I have ever seen.
Reply 53
croissantfever
jews knew jews, hence they had a sense of community. Do any unborns know any other unborns?


Not all Jews knew each other, to say they did is silly. Besides, for the group to be distinguished it does not have to be by each other, it is something that can be identified by others.

Check the definition of genocide.
Reply 54
Agent Smith
Both "black people" AND the various groups that form that overarching group are regarded as races. The same is true of all races, because all have subgroups. So it's genocide to wipe out all Koreans, as well as it being genocide to wipe out all Asians.

If you go up a step, you can add in the fact that wiping out all humans is genocide; "black", "white" and other labels then become the subgroups, and "Scandinavian", "Korean" and the rest become sub-sub-groups...


What are you trying to say?
rock_eleven
right, we can indeed further group them as unwanted unborns. This is a very weak candidate for the "genocide" label, though, surely. You could classify all killings as genocide based on this level of classification. Prisoner execution is the killing of the entire group of people sentenced to death - do you call that genocide? What about if I kill my neighbours, who are characterised and classified by being objects of my desire to kill. Genocide?

Both of those examples or no more or less unreasonable than proposing that the killing of the group "unwanted unborn children" is genocide.

It renders the concept of genocide completely obsolete as it is doesn't tell us anything about those killed or the reasons.


Love Life
No, you would need to prove those cases where as a result of unwanted lives, and should you do so, you would also need to prove it was systematic and planned.

The classification I gave is perfect and although you strongly disagree, no amount of desire can change facts.


both cases I mentioned involve "unwanted" people. In both cases some want them to live, some want them to die. Just the same with abortion, right? Both of my examples were planned and systematic. How can I "prove" that prisoner execution is planned? I think it it safe to assume that it isnt random and accidental.


Your argument rests on the classification of aborted foetuses as an ethnic group. Without this, it can not be genocide, according to your own definition in post #1.

This can tenuously be established by recognising the group of "unwanted unborn children", who are "a group of people who identify with one another,‭ ‬or are so identified by others,‭ ‬on the basis of a boundary that distinguishes them from other groups." and therefore an ethnic group.

A key point of genocide is that it aims to exterminate the entire group. Again, according to your own definition.

So by this route we shrink the grouping right down until it only includes those who are killed. And voilà, we can call it genocide!

My extreme example is no different. I wish to kill 10 people. Can we find a common factor linking them into an ethnic group? Yes - they are all wished dead by me, and are all targets of my killing. This is the boundary that distinguishes them from other groups, as in the above quote, from your first post. Your relaxed concept of an ethnic group then permits entry of these 10 people to that register. "People who rock_eleven wishes dead" just like "unborn children who's mothers wish them dead". If I murder those people, by your rational, I am committing genocide.

Do you object to any of this reasoning?
Reply 56
I think we are losing focus here, folks.

First of all, people who have killed a woman and her unborn child have been found guilty of murder on two counts - the woman and the unborn child...

...and explicit protection is extended to the unborn child in the 'International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights 1966' and in the 'Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide, 1948.

I am unaware of any amendments that remove these protections.
Love Life
What does the average criminal do for society? What does the average rapist do for society, yet we do not even kill these, and the innocent ones you seem fit for destruction?
That's a reasonable point. A lack of contribution is not, on its own, sufficient justification to terminate the foetus.

But what about all the various sociological arguments surrounding the mother?

That is a strange thought process, besides do you realise that foetuses grow up to be people like Bill gates, Mother Theresa, and other members of society that do good, your argument is the weakest I have ever seen.
Not as weak as that one. Foetuses also grow into less desirable characters. It balances out.
yawn
I think we are losing focus here, folks.

First of all, people who have killed a woman and her unborn child have been found guilty of murder on two counts - the woman and the unborn child...

...and explicit protection is extended to the unborn child in the 'International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights 1966' and in the 'Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide, 1948.

I am unaware of any amendments that remove these protections.
Does that protection grant the foetus exactly the same rights as its mother? Is abortion illegal in all circumstances?
Reply 59
Agent Smith
Does that protection grant the foetus exactly the same rights as its mother?


Apparently it does.

Is abortion illegal in all circumstances?


No. If it is a case that if the pregnancy continues at the expense of the loss of the mother's life, then the mother's life has greater priority.

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