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Is it transphobic / bigoted to be gay?

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Original post by Romula
No, but if he says, say "I would never be attracted to a brunette", he is implicitly insulting the attractiveness of brunettes. It's a matter of arbitrary preference on the basis of visual appearance, not sexual orientation on the basis of gender.


No, I'm not attracted to blond men, but I recognise that some can be very attractive. I'm not attracted to women or trans men either, but that doesn't mean I'm a bigot. Unless you're attracted to everyone under the sun, your argument is pure garbage.
(edited 9 years ago)
Reply 41
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Original post by BefuddledPenguin
That's fair enough, I'd've repped this reply if TSR would let me.


Thanks dude :smile:

But the one question I still need to ask is, what if you were not aware that your partner was transgender. So as far as you were aware, you are in a loving and intimate relationship with your boyfriend, you propose engagement to him, and at this point he decides that you should know everything about him, and he comes out as transgender. What would you do in this scenario, is this a relationship ending revelation?


The difficulty with this scenario is that it takes a medically unrealistic situation and then posits it in a way that makes you a heartless bastard if you then reject your trans partner.

It's very difficult to say how one would feel, it's possible one might feel mislead by someone who claimed to have loved them and therefore wholly within their rights to terminate the relationship. I don't know, it would be a very tricky situation
Original post by young_guns
My OP was referring to Watch Key Phone, who certainly did call me a bigot for only being attracted to cis-males.


:hi:

I didn't call you a bigot because of your sexual orientation. I called you a bigot because you made inaccurate and harmful claims about trans people. Here are some points for you to think about:

1. You are failing to make a distinction between attraction and relationships. You have most likely been attracted to someone you did not enter a relationship with. Probably even someone you've never spoken to - celebrities perhaps. When you experience attraction to someone at first look, you do not do it based on genitals, chromosomes, or internal anatomy. It happens based on their outward appearance, their mannerisms, their clothing, etc. None of that is defined by their genitals.

2. By saying you would refuse a relationship with a trans person, you are being bigoted. You are assuming that all trans people have characteristics in common which you would be able to identify. This is simply not true. Some trans people are indistinguishable from a cis person. And there are also cis people who could be mistaken for trans people. For example, some cis men have to have mastectomies because they grew breast tissue.

3. Intersex people exist. At least 1% (possibly much more) of the population were born neither unambiguously male or female in sex. There are five different characteristics used to define physical sex: external genitals, gonads, hormones, sex chromosomes, internal reproductive anatomy. In many people, these characteristics don't all match up. It's even possible for someone to be intersex and not be aware of it.

When you say you are only attracted to cis people, you are excluding intersex people from your picture of the universe. If you were attracted to someone and you entered a relationship with them, and later found out that they had sex chromosomes other than XY, would you break up with them? Tell them they weren't a real man? Tell them you were never attracted to them in the first place?
(edited 9 years ago)
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Original post by RandZul'Zorander
That it does but only if you aren't being critical. Again, I'll ask a very simple question. Are you attracted to people sexually or romantically prior to seeing their sex organs?


Of course, the reason you are hitting that point over and over again is that if one were to say that one would reject them upon seeing their sex organs, you then assert they are discriminating against them and being bigoted. Right?

So what if someone's attraction changes when they see their partners sex organs for the first time? Is that illegitimate in and of itself?
Original post by young_guns

The difficulty with this scenario is that it takes a medically unrealistic situation and then posits it in a way that makes you a heartless bastard if you then reject your trans partner.


It is definitely medically realistic.
Original post by young_guns
Of course, the reason you are hitting that point over and over again is that if one were to say that one would reject them upon seeing their sex organs, you then assert they are discriminating against them and being bigoted. Right?

So what if someone's attraction changes when they see their partners sex organs for the first time? Is that illegitimate in and of itself?


No. That isn't my contention at all. Once again, I have said you can not be attracted to someone based on their genitalia.

My point is that it is possible you might be attracted to a trans man without realizing that they are trans. I have not made judgement about the attraction after further information is known. But based on their gender presentation which arguably is a huge make up of the time people feel attraction then it seems you could be attracted to an FTM man prior to learning of their gender history.
Reply 46
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Original post by Watch Key Phone

1. You are failing to make a distinction between attraction and relationships. You have most likely been attracted to someone you did not enter a relationship with. Probably even someone you've never spoken to - celebrities perhaps. When you experience attraction to someone at first look, you do not do it based on genitals, chromosomes, or internal anatomy. It happens based on their outward appearance, their mannerisms, their clothing, etc. None of that is defined by their genitals.


You don't get to decide what attraction is to other people. For me, the spark of interest is based on someone's outward appearance, their mannerisms and clothing.

Personally, I find intellect and personality more important, which can only be determined by getting to know them.

I also find sexual chemistry important, which can only be determined by having a tumble in the sack. Once I have determined their intellect/personality traits and our sexual compatibility, the real attraction, interest and desire commences.

2. By saying you would refuse a relationship with a trans person, you are being bigoted.


I'm sorry, it's not inherently bigoted. I would also refuse a relationship with a woman.

This is simply not true. Some trans people are indistinguishable from a cis person. And there are also cis people who could be mistaken for trans people.


Fine. Let's assume there's an FTM transman who passes perfectly for a man. Why is it wrong for me to say that it's unlikely I would continue to be attracted to them once we'd had a tumble between the sheets?

For example, some cis men have to have mastectomies because they grew breast tissue.


That might be relevant if I said I was attracted to all cis-men, but I'm not. And cis-men who possess traditionally female characteristics are not likely to be attractive to me. No offense to them, it's simply personal preference.

Intersex people exist. At least 1% (possibly much more) of the population were born neither unambiguously male or female in sex. There are five different characteristics used to define physical sex: external genitals, gonads, hormones, sex chromosomes, internal reproductive anatomy. In many people, these characteristics don't all match up. It's even possible for someone to be intersex and not be aware of it.


If they're intersex and not aware of it, and they possess all the usual male characteristics, and identify as a male, then to me they're a male and that's fine.

later found out that they had sex chromosomes other than XY, would you break up with them? Tell them they weren't a real man? Tell them you were never attracted to them in the first place?


For me to get into a relationship with them in the first place, they would have possessed all the usual male characteristics (and in particular, a penis). If they did possess all the male characteristics, and looked like and identified as a male, then I would probably be okay with that.

What I likely wouldn't be up for is a relationship with someone who doesn't possess the usual male characteristics (again, a penis is pretty important here)
Reply 47
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Original post by RandZul'Zorander
No. That isn't my contention at all. Once again, I have said you can not be attracted to someone based on their genitalia.

My point is that it is possible you might be attracted to a trans man without realizing that they are trans. I have not made judgement about the attraction after further information is known. But based on their gender presentation which arguably is a huge make up of the time people feel attraction then it seems you could be attracted to an FTM man prior to learning of their gender history.


Okay, let's say I see an FTM transman and I think "Phoar, he's really hot". And he likes me too. We go on a date, he comes back to my place and we take our clothes off and I see there's not what I'd expected. Is it wrong at that point to say, "I'm not really comfortable with this"?
Original post by young_guns
Okay, let's say I see an FTM transman and I think "Phoar, he's really hot". And he likes me too. We go on a date, he comes back to my place and we take our clothes off and I see there's not what I'd expected. Is it wrong at that point to say, "I'm not really comfortable with this"?


No.

Edit: I mean it can depend on the reasoning. But on the face of it no.
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Original post by RandZul'Zorander
No.

Edit: I mean it can depend on the reasoning. But on the face of it no.


Out of deference to you and Watch Key Phone, I thought I would go and take a look at some FTM transguys to see if they stirred anything.

And there are a few where I was like :hmmmm2: not doing anything, but there were a couple for which I was like :yep:.

This one, Benton, is really cute and he seems like a boy. I mean... you know what I'm talking about. His mannerisms, his demeanor, are male.





So maybe I would cross that bridge when I came to it
(edited 9 years ago)
Original post by young_guns
Out of deference to you and Watch Key Phone, I thought I would go and take a look at some FTM transguys to see if they stirred anything.

And there are a few where I was like :hmmmm2: not doing anything, but there were a couple for which I was like :yep:.

This one, Benton, is really cute and he seems like a boy. I mean... you know what I'm talking about. His mannerisms, his demeanor, are male.





So maybe I would cross that bridge when I came to it


Well I am glad you at least went out to take a look.

Edit: And yes he is pretty cute :wink:
(edited 9 years ago)
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Original post by RandZul'Zorander
Well I am glad you at least went out to take a look.


Oh and this guy too. Phwoar

Of course, it's not likely to be an issue any time soon given I don't exactly have guys that good looking climbing over each other to get at me.

<br>[video="youtube;rxBZ9uxC7KY"]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rxBZ9uxC7KY&amp;list=UUtfrUg NJgQEaLJFq_1fx5hQ[/video]
Original post by Romula
I can understand why they say that- by saying you would never be attracted to a trans man, you are implicitly insulting trans men. But don't beat yourself up about it- and keep an open mind. Just because you've never yet been attracted to a trans guy doesn't mean you never will.


They aren't real men though... How is it insulting to be attracted to authenticity as opposed to fakery?
Original post by RandZul'Zorander
Well I am glad you at least went out to take a look.

Edit: And yes he is pretty cute :wink:


Are you a tranny by the way?
Original post by DepthCharge
Are you a tranny by the way?


1. 'Tranny' is an offensive term. Generally you shouldn't use it if you are planning on having civil conversation with people.

2. I'm curious why you'd think I'm trans
Original post by BefuddledPenguin
I'm bi so maybe I'm peculiar in this regard, being attracted to both sexes and everything, but I think I'd be attracted regardless of the person's sex/gender. I tend to fancy people in a slightly random way, and it wouldn't bother me if I found myself fancying a transgender person.


Sounds like your pansexual
Original post by young_guns
Out of deference to you and Watch Key Phone, I thought I would go and take a look at some FTM transguys to see if they stirred anything.

And there are a few where I was like :hmmmm2: not doing anything, but there were a couple for which I was like :yep:.

This one, Benton, is really cute and he seems like a boy. I mean... you know what I'm talking about. His mannerisms, his demeanor, are male.





So maybe I would cross that bridge when I came to it


He still doesn't have a penis, which would mean that 99.9999999% of gay men wouldn't even consider him. FTM transsexuals can look quite convincing, but MTF transsexuals are very unconvincing in general.
Original post by Schrödingers Cat
Sounds like your pansexual


Depends on how we take and understand bisexuality and pansexuality. There actually is another thread that is currently exploring this : http://www.thestudentroom.co.uk/showthread.php?t=2958765 (although this thread did get derailed for a time).
(edited 9 years ago)
Oh God.

I am a lesbian and I find it highly unlikely I will ever be in a relationship with a transwoman. Why? First of all, less than 1% of the population is transgendered so the likelihood of me falling in love with one isn't very high. Second, I like very feminine women and most transgendered people don't look convincing enough for my homosexual brain to find them attractive as women. Of course if by some sort of miracle I met a woman who was trans but you could never tell if your life depended on it and I fell in love with her I would date her.

Highly unlikely but you never know what will happen down the line. In general though, no, guys who have sex changes/plan on having sex changes usually don't do it for me physically. I am very, very lesbian.

Crucify me!
Original post by Schrödingers Cat
Sounds like your pansexual


I've always rejected the need for a pansexual label because I reject the idea that transgender people are a third gender. A transperson is either male or female, and I'm attracted to people who are either male or female.

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