Are masculinity and femininity positive character traits?

There is a thread floating around here about men turning soft - another way to put that would be that men are losing their masculinity. In a world where people are empowered to be themselves and not conform to gender-based expectations, there seems to be less pressure than ever to be either masculine or feminine.

I want to know, do people here believe masculinity or femininity to be positive character traits, i.e., things to be aspired to? Or put another way, is it a bad thing if men became less 'masculine' and women less 'feminine'?

Reply 1

TwoLimes

It’s something to aspire to be, if you want it to be. Personally, no. I’d rather someone aspire to be kind, or caring, or respectful of others, rather than masculine or feminine, but if you want to look and act a certain way because it makes you feel more comfortable in your skin then go for it. I really couldn’t care less what you look like, if you’re a bloke in heels or a woman in a shirt and tie (to very broadly characterise both genders there…) you can do what you like as long as you’re a nice person about it.

Reply 2

miser

Original post by TwoLimes

I agree that people should, broadly speaking, aspire to be who they want to be, though naturally some aspirations are better than others.

But concerning your argument, I think it comes across as if masculinity and femininity exist in opposition to aspiring to be kind, caring or respectful of others, which I guess isn't your intended meaning. Surely people can aspire to be a great many things, so we don't have to prefer that they aren't masculine or feminine in order to express a desire for people to be kind, caring or respectful?

Reply 3

TwoLimes

Haha yeah that's not what I meant, you got it in the last sentence; be masculine, feminine, anything you want - just don't be a douchebag ha

Reply 4

rockrunride

They can be, if the outward portrayal of such is not contrived to the point where it's noticeable.

I've recently started social dancing, which has quite strong yet implicit gender expectations. Virtually all men lead and all women follow as their dominant role. Being a good lead as a man has a very positive influence on other men - I was at an event the other day and my (male) friend pointed to another bloke dancing at the time, and said "wow, Dave looks so smooth." Dave's effortless display of masculinity was clearly inspiring my friend. And for straight women who follow, I dare say being led smoothly by a man appeals (at least in part) to their sexuality.

Yet I also find it can be a hindrance. I've recently started learning to follow, and I know there are far less men that can follow competently compared to women that can lead competently, purely because the social stigma regarding masculinity is more of a concern to men than femininity is to women. The 'no homo' psychology is a perfect example. When the peacock display reaches the explicit 'no homo' stage, that's the point where it starts to go over the top and you begin to look less than cool.

Reply 5

Kvothe the Arcane

I don't think that either masculinity or femininity are attributes that can be referred to as positive or negative. I'm not trying to be difficult.

(edited 9 years ago)

Reply 6

TroyAndAbed

If the UK wants to regain its place in the world gender equality rankings it needs to abolish masculinity and femininity. Removing the words from the dictionary would be a start.

Reply 7

Kvothe the Arcane

Original post by TroyAndAbed

If the UK wants to regain its place in the world gender equality rankings it needs to abolish masculinity and femininity. Removing the words from the dictionary would be a start.

Sarcasm?

Reply 8

517340

Original post by TroyAndAbed

If the UK wants to regain its place in the world gender equality rankings it needs to abolish masculinity and femininity. Removing the words from the dictionary would be a start.

It'd rank easily above a lot of European languages, with their grammatical genders and stuff.

Reply 9

Катя

I read a thing once which went along the lines of "femininity is a male fantasy".

Which was very thought-provoking.

Throughout childhood (and even now!), my mother always, always told me off for not being "feminine enough" - whether it was because I ran around the playground throwing snowballs at everyone like a madman, or because I had no time or patience for make-up, or because I didn't give a damn that "bread would make me fat" - all this at the age of 8, mind - I always got "but you're a girl" from her with a sigh.

Only yesterday I was leaving the house to go somewhere and she came up to the door to say goodbye and said, "don't you have a more feminine, more pretty jacket?" to me. I sighed and told her that this one was warmer and had more pockets, and she in turn sighed and said "but you're practically a woman" to me.

Which then got me thinking that, generally, "for girls" / "feminine" / "for women" are used as synonyms for "inferior", "decorative", "pretty". Like, see: "You throw like a girl," "don't be such a girl"... women's clothes are invariably less practical / comfortable than men's (see: stiletto heels vs workers' boots, or something).

So yeah, like, imo "femininity" is inherently kinda oppressive. And gendered stuff is just so weird.

Like, wtf is with this cheese?
http://thesocietypages.org/socimages/2013/05/13/monterey-jack-meet-monterey-jill/

Also worth looking at: http://thesocietypages.org/socimages/2013/12/27/gendered-and-the-body-language-of-power/

Reply 10

Kvothe the Arcane

Original post by Ruthless Dutchman

It'd rank easily above a lot of European languages, with their grammatical genders and stuff.

Reply 11

Mackay

Overt feminine/masculine traits are horrible.

Lads stood around at parties downing pints and feminists commenting on Guardian articles.

Reply 12

Evening

Original post by keromedic

I don't think that either masculinity or femininity are attributes that can be referred to as positive or negative. I'm not trying to be difficult.

Agreed.

It's not so much the traits themselves as much as it is the conventional boundaries masculinity and femininity encompass. And when they start to limit certain people or include certain undesirable aspects then they become problematic.

Trying to rewrite the definition of either gender sphere is good and bad in this respect: it includes more people but at the expense of destroying traditional conceptions that leads to people angry that men are going soft or that women won't shave their armpits.

Reply 13

ilem

They are not inherently positive or negative by themselves, it's a matter of personal choice/inclination towards either set of traits. They're not something to aspire towards, nor are they something that should be eradicated; you're either masculine, or feminine, or you fall somewhere in between, and all of these options are absolutely fine. It only becomes a problem when people start shaming and pontificating in order to get others to change into either stereotype, even though the people in question are perfectly happy being themselves.

Case in point: the 'men going soft' thread. I'd bet most men who are that way are quite happy with their personalities, and yet some posters think that it's imperative for them to change their ways to a more masculine character. Which obviously causes arguments as people see no reason to reinvent their personalities all for the sake of pleasing society.

Reply 14

Rakas21

While i'm quite happy being a quirky semi-masculine guy myself i do think that femininity in women is an extremely attractive trait and consider the lack of it to be a horrid evolution in our society. This combined with the notion that we should see others as genderless is a terrible development.

So yes, i believe that people should have flexibility in gender conformity but i value such character traits.

Reply 15

Smash Bandicoot

Original post by keromedic

I don't think that either masculinity or femininity are attributes that can be referred to as positive or negative. I'm not trying to be difficult.

Agreed. The ideal person would have an optimal mixture of masculine and feminine qualities and be able to utilise either masculine or feminine ones dependent on the situation.