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del operator question

I need to show:[triangle is del operator]
f(r)=f+2rf\bigtriangledown \cdot \bigtriangledown f(r)=f''+\frac{2}{r}f'
where r=|r|, r=(x,y,z), and f(r) is a twice differentiable scalar function with f'=df/dr, f''=d^2f/dr^2

So I was thinking I could write this as ()f(r)=f(r)(\bigtriangledown \cdot \bigtriangledown )f(r)=\bigtriangleup f(r) [other triangle is the laplace operator], but then how could I work out:
2x2f(r)\frac{\partial^2 }{\partial x^2}f(r)?

I know that:
xf(r)=dfdrrx=dfdrxr\frac{\partial }{\partial x}f(r)=\frac{\mathrm{df} }{\mathrm{dr} }\frac{\partial r}{\partial x}=\frac{\mathrm{df} }{\mathrm{dr} }\frac{x}{r}.

Basically: am I correct to rewrite the LHS as I did on the 4th line of text, and how could I then work out the second partial derivative below it?

Thanks in advance. :smile:
Reply 1
Original post by rayquaza17
Basically: am I correct to rewrite the LHS as I did on the 4th line of text?


Yes, I think so.

and how could I then work out the second partial derivative below?


Product rule, and use the chain rule to differentiate f'(r).
Reply 2
Original post by Hodor
Yes, I think so.



Product rule, and use the chain rule to differentiate f'(r).


Thank you very much. :smile:
Reply 3
Original post by rayquaza17
I need to show:[triangle is del operator]
f(r)=f+2rf\bigtriangledown \cdot \bigtriangledown f(r)=f''+\frac{2}{r}f'
where r=|r|, r=(x,y,z), and f(r) is a twice differentiable scalar function with f'=df/dr, f''=d^2f/dr^2

So I was thinking I could write this as ()f(r)=f(r)(\bigtriangledown \cdot \bigtriangledown )f(r)=\bigtriangleup f(r) [other triangle is the laplace operator], but then how could I work out:
2x2f(r)\frac{\partial^2 }{\partial x^2}f(r)?

I know that:
xf(r)=dfdrrx=dfdrxr\frac{\partial }{\partial x}f(r)=\frac{\mathrm{df} }{\mathrm{dr} }\frac{\partial r}{\partial x}=\frac{\mathrm{df} }{\mathrm{dr} }\frac{x}{r}.

Basically: am I correct to rewrite the LHS as I did on the 4th line of text, and how could I then work out the second partial derivative below it?

Thanks in advance. :smile:



painful...

these types of questions usually have tricks which cut the work out, but I can never see them...

the question can be found on the link

http://madasmaths.com/archive/maths_booklets/advanced_topics/vector_operators.pdf

page 13
Reply 4
Original post by TeeEm
painful...

these types of questions usually have tricks which cut the work out, but I can never see them...

the question can be found on the link

http://madasmaths.com/archive/maths_booklets/advanced_topics/vector_operators.pdf

page 13


Much appreciated.

I used this to check my answer, and I'm so glad that I got it right after spending close to 2 hours trying to do this!

prsom

<3 <3 <3
Reply 5
Original post by rayquaza17
Much appreciated.

I used this to check my answer, and I'm so glad that I got it right after spending close to 2 hours trying to do this!

prsom

<3 <3 <3


I am glad you found it useful.
Very long and tidious.
(I remember when I wrote the solution it also took me ages, this question a good test for concentration)
:smile:
rayquaza17
..
TeeEm
..
There are analogues to the chain and product rules that you can use with the del operator. The problem is that it takes a fair bit of experience to know which analogues are valid and which aren't. (I used to be able to do this easily, but it's 20 years since I had exams in this and I struggle a bit now...)

Anyhow, here's my proof:

f(r)=f(r)r\nabla f(r) = f'(r) \nabla r (chain rule analogue for del)

=f(r)rr=f(r)rr = f'(r) \frac{\bf{r}}{r} = \dfrac{f'(r)}{r} {\bf {r}} (*) (from knowing r=rr\nabla r = \frac{\bf{r}}{r} which you really should know.)

.f(r)=(f(r)r).r+f(r)r(.r)\nabla.\nabla f(r) = \left(\nabla \dfrac{f'(r)}{r}\right). {\bf {r}}+ \dfrac{f'(r)}{r} (\nabla.{\bf {r}}) (product rule analogue for del)

Now f'(r) / r is a function of r, so we can reapply the result from (*) to say:

f(r)r=(ddrf(r)r)rr=(f(r)rf(r)r2)rr\nabla \dfrac{f'(r)}{r} = \left(\dfrac{d}{dr}\dfrac{f'(r)}{r} \right) \frac{\bf{r}}{r} = \left(\dfrac{f''(r)}{r} - \dfrac{f'(r)}{r^2} \right) \frac{\bf{r}}{r}

and so (f(r)r).r=(f(r)rf(r)r2)r.rr\left(\nabla \dfrac{f'(r)}{r}\right). {\bf {r}} = \left(\dfrac{f''(r)}{r} - \dfrac{f'(r)}{r^2} \right) \dfrac{\bf{r.r}}{r}

=r(f(r)rf(r)r2)=f(r)f(r)/r = r \left(\dfrac{f''(r)}{r} - \dfrac{f'(r)}{r^2} \right) = f''(r) - f'(r) / r (**)

Meanwhile, .r\nabla.{\bf r} = 3 (again, something you should know!), so

f(r)r(.r)=3f(r)/r\dfrac{f'(r)}{r} (\nabla.{\bf {r}}) = 3 f'(r) / r (***)

Adding (**) and (***) gives the desired result.
Reply 7
Original post by DFranklin
There are analogues to the chain and product rules that you can use with the del operator. The problem is that it takes a fair bit of experience to know which analogues are valid and which aren't. (I used to be able to do this easily, but it's 20 years since I had exams in this and I struggle a bit now...)

Anyhow, here's my proof:

f(r)=f(r)r\nabla f(r) = f'(r) \nabla r (chain rule analogue for del)

=f(r)rr=f(r)rr = f'(r) \frac{\bf{r}}{r} = \dfrac{f'(r)}{r} {\bf {r}} (*) (from knowing r=rr\nabla r = \frac{\bf{r}}{r} which you really should know.)

.f(r)=(f(r)r).r+f(r)r(.r)\nabla.\nabla f(r) = \left(\nabla \dfrac{f'(r)}{r}\right). {\bf {r}}+ \dfrac{f'(r)}{r} (\nabla.{\bf {r}}) (product rule analogue for del)

Now f'(r) / r is a function of r, so we can reapply the result from (*) to say:

f(r)r=(ddrf(r)r)rr=(f(r)rf(r)r2)rr\nabla \dfrac{f'(r)}{r} = \left(\dfrac{d}{dr}\dfrac{f'(r)}{r} \right) \frac{\bf{r}}{r} = \left(\dfrac{f''(r)}{r} - \dfrac{f'(r)}{r^2} \right) \frac{\bf{r}}{r}

and so (f(r)r).r=(f(r)rf(r)r2)r.rr\left(\nabla \dfrac{f'(r)}{r}\right). {\bf {r}} = \left(\dfrac{f''(r)}{r} - \dfrac{f'(r)}{r^2} \right) \dfrac{\bf{r.r}}{r}

=r(f(r)rf(r)r2)=f(r)f(r)/r = r \left(\dfrac{f''(r)}{r} - \dfrac{f'(r)}{r^2} \right) = f''(r) - f'(r) / r (**)

Meanwhile, .r\nabla.{\bf r} = 3 (again, something you should know!), so

f(r)r(.r)=3f(r)/r\dfrac{f'(r)}{r} (\nabla.{\bf {r}}) = 3 f'(r) / r (***)

Adding (**) and (***) gives the desired result.


I am grateful for your time.

As I mentioned to Rayquaza there are shortcuts for all these operators which like yourself I did a long time ago (longer in my case).
Unfortunately I have forgotten most of this material and my efforts to remember often hit a brick wall. (Brain stalls and that is it)

I will look at your proof when my brain "feels better" and I hope that I can follow it.
Reply 8
Original post by DFranklin
There are analogues to the chain and product rules that you can use with the del operator. The problem is that it takes a fair bit of experience to know which analogues are valid and which aren't. (I used to be able to do this easily, but it's 20 years since I had exams in this and I struggle a bit now...)

Anyhow, here's my proof:

f(r)=f(r)r\nabla f(r) = f'(r) \nabla r (chain rule analogue for del)

=f(r)rr=f(r)rr = f'(r) \frac{\bf{r}}{r} = \dfrac{f'(r)}{r} {\bf {r}} (*) (from knowing r=rr\nabla r = \frac{\bf{r}}{r} which you really should know.)

.f(r)=(f(r)r).r+f(r)r(.r)\nabla.\nabla f(r) = \left(\nabla \dfrac{f'(r)}{r}\right). {\bf {r}}+ \dfrac{f'(r)}{r} (\nabla.{\bf {r}}) (product rule analogue for del)

Now f'(r) / r is a function of r, so we can reapply the result from (*) to say:

f(r)r=(ddrf(r)r)rr=(f(r)rf(r)r2)rr\nabla \dfrac{f'(r)}{r} = \left(\dfrac{d}{dr}\dfrac{f'(r)}{r} \right) \frac{\bf{r}}{r} = \left(\dfrac{f''(r)}{r} - \dfrac{f'(r)}{r^2} \right) \frac{\bf{r}}{r}

and so (f(r)r).r=(f(r)rf(r)r2)r.rr\left(\nabla \dfrac{f'(r)}{r}\right). {\bf {r}} = \left(\dfrac{f''(r)}{r} - \dfrac{f'(r)}{r^2} \right) \dfrac{\bf{r.r}}{r}

=r(f(r)rf(r)r2)=f(r)f(r)/r = r \left(\dfrac{f''(r)}{r} - \dfrac{f'(r)}{r^2} \right) = f''(r) - f'(r) / r (**)

Meanwhile, .r\nabla.{\bf r} = 3 (again, something you should know!), so

f(r)r(.r)=3f(r)/r\dfrac{f'(r)}{r} (\nabla.{\bf {r}}) = 3 f'(r) / r (***)

Adding (**) and (***) gives the desired result.


Thank you for taking the time to post this.

I am going to give this a proper look through this weekend. :smile:

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