How do standards differ / affect students across medical schools?

I was wondering if anyone knew whether your university for an undergraduate medicine degree would affect your future career?

I am aware that there is a difference in standards for other degrees, but I am assuming medicine is largely standardised?

I have applied to Nottingham, Exeter, St George's, and Plymouth. Currently I think being in London will be good for both my studies and my extracurricular activities, but I am wondering how far I should be factoring in the potential prestige of Exeter.

Any help much appreciated!

Reply 1

Democracy

20

Original post by FreddyG

I was wondering if anyone knew whether your university for an undergraduate medicine degree would affect your future career?

Nope, doesn't make a difference.

I am aware that there is a difference in standards for other degrees, but I am assuming medicine is largely standardised?

Yep it is standardised and all medical students do learn the same things, but different med schools will teach certain subjects in greater depth and others in less depth. But everyone has to meet a general minimum standard.

I have applied to Nottingham, Exeter, St George's, and Plymouth. Currently I think being in London will be good for both my studies and my extracurricular activities, but I am wondering how far I should be factoring in the potential prestige of Exeter.

Any help much appreciated!

The London med schools are way more prestigious than Exeter - Exeter is still a very new medical school.

Not that prestige should come into your decision anyway - it doesn't make the slightest difference when you're a doctor.

Reply 2

OnionRing

11

Prestige only matters when you're abroad

Reply 3

Chief Wiggum

20

Original post by FreddyG

I was wondering if anyone knew whether your university for an undergraduate medicine degree would affect your future career?

I am aware that there is a difference in standards for other degrees, but I am assuming medicine is largely standardised?

I have applied to Nottingham, Exeter, St George's, and Plymouth. Currently I think being in London will be good for both my studies and my extracurricular activities, but I am wondering how far I should be factoring in the potential prestige of Exeter.

Any help much appreciated!

They all have to meet minimum standards, but obviously there's nothing to stop medical schools going into more detail etc if they want.

I don't think Exeter is considered prestigious for medicine (prestige doesn't make any difference for medicine anyway).

Reply 4

Okorange

17

Agree with posters above, didn't even know Exeter had a medical school? Just realized it was called PCMD which i did know about.

I don't think you should factor in prestige in your decision, I think London is the best option for you if that is where you want to go.

Reply 5

FreddyG

OP

Original post by Okorange

Agree with posters above, didn't even know Exeter had a medical school? Just realized it was called PCMD which i did know about.

I don't think you should factor in prestige in your decision, I think London is the best option for you if that is where you want to go.

As the most coherent response and a medical student I thought I might as well come to you for follow up! I am currently doing research at Bristol University and the head academic has told me that prestige will at least count for something, which you seem to acknowledge, while saying I should not factor it in?

Do you have any reasons for this / know when it is and isn't relevant?

Exeter has just become independent and split from peninsula. At least in the academic world it seems the stronger elements and people have moved there.

I don't know if you're the right person to ask, but I was looking for a more balanced and explanatory answer than the ones I have been given so far!

Reply 6

Okorange

17

Original post by FreddyG

As the most coherent response and a medical student I thought I might as well come to you for follow up! I am currently doing research at Bristol University and the head academic has told me that prestige will at least count for something, which you seem to acknowledge, while saying I should not factor it in?

Do you have any reasons for this / know when it is and isn't relevant?

Exeter has just become independent and split from peninsula. At least in the academic world it seems the stronger elements and people have moved there.

I don't know if you're the right person to ask, but I was looking for a more balanced and explanatory answer than the ones I have been given so far!

Thanks for the kind words, but the people who posted above me are actually medics/doctors as well more senior than myself and I don't think my response was actually any better than anyone elses here.

The reason I said you shouldn't factor it in is because for foundation applications your medical school is blinded from your application, so your school's prestige doesn't play any role. After foundation, it plays a minimal role, other factors become much more important.

I suggested London mainly because you mentioned you would like it there more, and I think that is a much more important factor. You are going to be spending 5-6 years of your life and if you don't enjoy it, holding on to prestige is going to be of little comfort especially when it doesn't really matter for your career.

One thing I do suggest is looking at a school's curriculum and its research opportunities to ensure they fit your interests, but don't use prestige as a deciding factor.

Reply 7

Democracy

20

Original post by FreddyG

As the most coherent response and a medical student I thought I might as well come to you for follow up! I am currently doing research at Bristol University and the head academic has told me that prestige will at least count for something, which you seem to acknowledge, while saying I should not factor it in?

Do you have any reasons for this / know when it is and isn't relevant?

Exeter has just become independent and split from peninsula. At least in the academic world it seems the stronger elements and people have moved there.

I don't know if you're the right person to ask, but I was looking for a more balanced and explanatory answer than the ones I have been given so far!

Everyone who has advised you in this thread is a medical student.

Whether you thought our advice was "coherent" or not is up to you however.

Okorange

xxx

PRSOM dude.

(edited 9 years ago)

Reply 8

FreddyG

OP

Original post by Democracy

Everyone who has advised you in this thread is a medical student.

Whether you thought our advice was "coherent" or not is up to you however.

PRSOM dude.

Sorry you took offence, they were just all a bit simplistic, and I was surprised by that. That's why I thought they weren't medical students. I should have mentioned that I have some information on this topic to avoid those type of answers; my bad.

What does PRSOM mean?

Reply 9

carcinoma

17

Original post by FreddyG

Sorry you took offence, they were just all a bit simplistic, and I was surprised by that. That's why I thought they weren't medical students. I should have mentioned that I have some information on this topic to avoid those type of answers; my bad.

What does PRSOM mean?

Also Exeter hasn't split from peninsula.

Peninsula split into its constituent medical schools of Exeter and Plymouth. Neither are Peninsula anymore, although they both have identical courses atm.

Posted from TSR Mobile

Reply 10

Hype en Ecosse

20

Original post by FreddyG

Sorry you took offence, they were just all a bit simplistic, and I was surprised by that. That's why I thought they weren't medical students. I should have mentioned that I have some information on this topic to avoid those type of answers; my bad.

What does PRSOM mean?

Complete answers to your questions from Demo and Wiggum = "a bit simplistic"

"I agree with the above" = Great answer

I don't understand what more you could want!

PRSOM is "please rate some other member [before you can rate this member again]": TSR doesn't let you rep the same person within a certain number of reps. People eventually developed an acronym for this. :tongue:

Posted from TSR Mobile

Reply 11

FreddyG

OP

Original post by carcinoma

Also Exeter hasn't split from peninsula.

Peninsula split into its constituent medical schools of Exeter and Plymouth. Neither are Peninsula anymore, although they both have identical courses atm.

Posted from TSR Mobile

It is no longer part of peninsula. Plymouth has also 'split' from the overarching title of peninsula. Sorry to have confused.

Reply 12

FreddyG

OP

Original post by Hype en Ecosse

Complete answers to your questions from Demo and Wiggum = "a bit simplistic"

"I agree with the above" = Great answer

I don't understand what more you could want!

PRSOM is "please rate some other member [before you can rate this member again]": TSR doesn't let you rep the same person within a certain number of reps. People eventually developed an acronym for this. :tongue:

Posted from TSR Mobile

Demo and Wiggim both made simplistic generalisations - which was my fault - I should have asked for more. I asked the other guy for more help because he didn't just dismiss one side of my considerations; if you must know! Everyone here seems pretty tetchy! I shouldn't have used the word coherent obviously, but I was trying to get across that I would like something more than yes or no answers.

I also had no idea people would be following up the discussion without me replying to them, and didn't think they would be offended by a prompt to someone else.

Reply 13

nexttime

22

Original post by FreddyG

Demo and Wiggim both made simplistic generalisations

Those answers were not generalisations. In fact, they were very specific to your question. Okorange didn't say anything different at all, literally saying "Agree with the above posters... I don't think you should factor prestige into your decision". Your interpretation of these answers has been bizarre. Is English your first language?

But since you at least seem genuine, I shall also re-iterate that chasing prestige will be of little to no benefit with the possible exception of when applying abroad. The processes of applying to be a doctor in the UK is not currently dependent upon med school. Courses very much do differ, emphasising different aspects of medical education as well as teaching in very differing styles, and this is worth looking up (there are good pages on the TSR wiki on this). I would not apply to Exeter because you think they are prestigious.

(edited 9 years ago)

Reply 14

Chief Wiggum

20

Original post by FreddyG

Sorry you took offence, they were just all a bit simplistic, and I was surprised by that. That's why I thought they weren't medical students. I should have mentioned that I have some information on this topic to avoid those type of answers; my bad.

What does PRSOM mean?

How were they simplistic? They were the correct answer. There's no point pretending something else is the case just to give you a superficially "more detailed" answer...

At any rate, it appears to me that myself, Democracy, and Okorange all said essentially the same thing, so I don't understand why you felt 2 of the answers were "too simplistic to be from a real medical student", and that one of them wasn't.

(edited 9 years ago)

Reply 15

navarre

20

Exeter and Plymouth have *exactly* the same course structure, teaching and curriculum. Although Exeter is the more prestigious University, it makes no difference whatsoever whether you go to Exeter or Plymouth for medical education. You should make your decision based on whether you prefer living in a larger seaside city, or a quieter but nicer and more historical town.

Reply 16

FreddyG

OP

Original post by nexttime

Those answers were not generalisations. In fact, they were very specific to your question. Okorange didn't say anything different at all, literally saying "Agree with the above posters... I don't think you should factor prestige into your decision". Your interpretation of these answers has been bizarre. Is English your first language?

But since you at least seem genuine, I shall also re-iterate that chasing prestige will be of little to no benefit with the possible exception of when applying abroad. The processes of applying to be a doctor in the UK is not currently dependent upon med school. Courses very much do differ, emphasising different aspects of medical education as well as teaching in very differing styles, and this is worth looking up (there are good pages on the TSR wiki on this). I would not apply to Exeter because you think they are prestigious.

This is such a funny little community you have here. I really wasn't expecting to be interrogated like this, I obviously should have been much more precise, but then again, if I had, it seems I might have offended the whole forum.

To dissect it, saying 'no, doesn't make a difference' is not a thorough explanation, is English your first language? At least with regards to masters, intercalated degrees, transfers, Phds, research etc. there are implications for which university you go to. If only because you will make different connections at different universities. So if we want to be pedantic at the level everyone here seems to be, the answer was simply wrong. I was surprised by how off cuff everyone was with their remarks, because this information is going to be incredibly important to me, so coming in like some sort of authority and completely disregarding these implications is frankly a bit arrogant and dismissive.

All the responses simply parroted back what I said, I was looking for more than that. I responded to the guy I did because he managed a slightly more balanced answer, even by acknowledging the fact that there are prestige considerations.

I left out these points in my response, because wording it like this would seem rude, but I did want to highlight the fact that I needed more; otherwise I would get similar responses.

My main intent with this question was to find out more about applying for specialist training, and placements, but I left it open in case there were other domains I hadn't thought about.

(edited 9 years ago)

Reply 17

FreddyG

OP

Original post by navarre

Exeter and Plymouth have *exactly* the same course structure, teaching and curriculum. Although Exeter is the more prestigious University, it makes no difference whatsoever whether you go to Exeter or Plymouth for medical education. You should make your decision based on whether you prefer living in a larger seaside city, or a quieter but nicer and more historical town.

But different teachers presumably; different academics.

Reply 18

navarre

20

Original post by FreddyG

But different teachers presumably; different academics.

Yep, of course.

Reply 19

Parent_help

4

Original post by FreddyG

.... but I am wondering how far I should be factoring in the potential prestige of Exeter

A quick google reveals this

http://student.bmj.com/student/view-article.html?id=sbmj.g5014
(N.B You need to register to read the whole article)
Does it matter which medical school you go to?

Students and doctors tell us how their choice of medical school influenced their careers

•

By: Alison Walker

•

Published: 22 August 2014

•

DOI: 10.1136/sbmj.g5014

•

Cite this as: BMJ 2014;22:g5014

The answer to the question depends on who you ask. Applicants to medical school, medical students, foundation doctors, doctors in specialty training, and qualified doctors all have different opinions. Your choice of medical school is an important decision in your life, determining where you live, how you study, and what you learn. But does your choice really matter in the long term? Is there any objective evidence to compare the quality of medical schools and how it determines your future career? And on what criteria, if any, should comparisons be based?
Top
[h="2"]The applicant[/h]Most sixth form students applying to medical school for the first time say it doesn’t matter where they go. Their priority is to get into any medical school that will have them, because competition is so fierce. UCAS report that there were 84 395 applications to preclinical medicine in 2013, but only 7515 of applicants were offered a place.[1] Daisy Howes, from Croydon, who applied during the 2014 application cycle says that you can’t afford to be too picky. “At the end of the day, I just wanted a place. My selection was first based on who would be most likely to offer me an interview with the grades and experience I had,” she says. Sometimes pupils know they might not get in first time and are aware of high achievers in the year above who got a place only at their second attempt. Applicants generally start by matching their predicted A level results and entrance examination results to narrow down their choice of medical school. This is followed by consideration of teaching style, location, cost of living, reputation, and other opportunities on offer. Given that the General Medical Council requires all medical schools to train their students to meet the knowledge, skills, and behaviours defined in Tomorrow’s Doctors,[2] applicants know that, whichever school they choose, by the end of the course they will have an equivalent qualification that will enable them to practise medicine as a junior doctor. From this perspective, it could be argued that it makes no difference where you go. But is this the case?
Top
[h="2"]The medical student[/h]When you arrive at medical school, factors such as location, cost of living, and teaching style come more sharply into focus. Location can make a huge difference to the student experience. Neil Chanchlani, foundation year 2 doctor and former editor of Student BMJ, trained at Leeds and Birmingham and says: “Smaller cities mean much bigger savings in the bank compared with going to a medical school in London. Also, generally speaking, a large proportion of London educated graduates stay in London, whereas after university over a third of my peers at Birmingham applied elsewhere for foundation training, which means I now have a good network of friends across the UK.” Differences in curriculum and course style quickly become apparent too. Medical schools place different emphasis on how medicine is taught. Henry Murphy, core trainee year 1 in emergency medicine at Chelsea and Westminster Hospital, says: “My medical school [Peninsula] taught us in an interactive, practical and problem based style, which results in trainees who are told they are confident clinically but are often lacking in depth of knowledge of anatomy or pharmacology. Other traditional schools didactically instil knowledge into their students, but I have noticed ‘traditional’ graduates often struggle to apply their knowledge, and aren’t as confident at ward based, hands-on skills.” Alice James, a student at Bristol, compared her experience with that of her sister, who studied at Imperial College. She says: “They had very little focus on ethics, communication skills, or ‘whole patient and society,’ whereas I had modules in ‘whole person care’ and ‘society, health and medicine,’ ‘ethics and creative reflection.’” The size of year group may also affect the number of tutors for each student and amount of personal tuition available.
It could also be argued that some medical schools equip you better for life as a junior doctor. One survey asked newly qualified doctors whether their experience at medical school prepared them well for their first year of clinical work.[3] It found substantial variation in preparedness between doctors from different medical schools. Overall, the proportion that strongly agreed or agreed that they were well prepared increased from a third (36%) in 2000-01 to over half (58.5%) in 2005, but by 2005 15.3% still disagreed or strongly disagreed that they were well prepared. Nothing can fully prepare you for life as a junior doctor. At some medical schools students now sit their finals or majority of examinations in their penultimate year. This leaves their final year free to get ready for the foundation programme by preparing them for applications and honing their clinical skills to be safe and competent junior doctors. This preparation before you start foundation training may have a greater impact on how you thrive in the practice of medicine than how well you do in your finals.
Top
[h="2"]The junior doctor[/h]One way to judge between medical schools is to compare the proportion of students who obtain their placement of choice on the foundation programme. Statistics from the UK Foundation Programme Office show that foundation schools are oversubscribed and application is competitive. There were 7974 completed applications in 2014, with 1368 applying to both the foundation programme and the academic foundation programme.[4] Not all medical students will be able to attend the foundation school of their choice (although training posts are eventually allocated for those who do not initially receive an offer). In 2014, while 92.2% of applicants to the foundation programme were allocated to one of their top five choices, students from certain medical schools seem more likely to achieve one of their top five choices. For example, students from medical schools in London were less likely to achieve one of their top five foundation school choices. Between 83.8% and 88.9% of students from King’s College London, Queen Mary, St George’s, and University College achieved their top five foundation school choices, whereas students from Lancaster, Warwick, Dundee, Glasgow, Cardiff, and Belfast all achieved 98% or higher in their top five choices.[4] However, it is important to be cautious about these statistics; they do not necessarily mean some medical schools are better than others. More graduates compete for a smaller number of places in particularly competitive locations, and North West Thames and North Central Thames are some of the most competitive foundation schools in the country. Also, often it is not just London based medical students competing for these places, but the rest of the UK’s medical students, who might see the appeal of moving to the capital.
Top
[h="2"]The trainee[/h]There is some evidence of a link between medical school and pass rates for postgraduate examinations.[5] Researchers looked at performance in the examination for membership of the Royal College of Physicians between 2003 and 2005, which is attempted by about 30% of all UK medical graduates. They found that medical school was a factor in applicants’ chances of passing, with graduates from Oxford, Cambridge, and Newcastle upon Tyne performing significantly better than average, while the performance of Liverpool, Dundee, Belfast, and Aberdeen graduates was significantly worse than average.[5] They concluded that some of the difference was due to disparity between medical schools in teaching focus, content, and approaches. Differences in performance by medical school have also been found for postgraduate examinations in anaesthetics and obstetrics and gynaecology.[6] [7] In addition, research has shown that a higher percentage of graduates from Oxford and Cambridge than from other medical schools choose hospital medical specialties.[8]
Anand Sundaralingam credits the course at University College London with preparing him in a way that helped him pass postgraduate examinations after medical school. “Our assessments [at medical school] were challenging, both written examinations and practical skills stations. However, they were a similar format to the postgraduate examinations we undertake to pursue our specialty careers. By the time it came to my postgraduate examinations I was familiar with a lot of the material and it wasn’t all new to me. This was where I came across a difference between myself and some of my colleagues who had trained elsewhere.”
Choice of specialty—one of the most crucial decisions a trainee doctor will make—can also be influenced by your medical school and the opportunities it offers. Muj Husain, a year 6 specialist trainee in neuropsychiatry at South London and Maudsley NHS Foundation Trust and chair of the Academy of Medical Royal Colleges’ trainee doctors’ group, says: “I had barely considered psychiatry as a career before a placement I went on at medical school. The consultant I worked with on that placement was wonderful and was a big influence on me choosing psychiatry. He made lots of time for me to talk about the specialty and the patients we were seeing. Sometimes we think we make our career choices rationally but often it is the personal relationship you have with a senior doctor that helps you decide which specialty to choose.” He says the opportunity at medical school to take a seven week placement in psychiatry played a vital part in his career choice. Alice James, studying at Bristol, is already aware of the differences between her experience and that of others at different medical schools. “Friends at medical schools such as Southampton or University of East Anglia spend lots of time on placement in GP [general practitioner] surgeries from the start of first year, whereas at Bristol there is far less focus on primary care,” she says. Furthermore, research shows that choosing general practice as a career is also influenced by training in a rural location.[9] A recent survey from Scotland has also found that medical school shapes your career preferences.[10]
Top
[h="2"]Conclusion[/h]So, does it matter which medical school you go to? Different medical schools offer their students different opportunities, and the importance of your choice of medical school seems to change depending on where you are in your career. Although all medical schools will prepare you to practise medicine, some may prepare you particularly well in passing examinations at undergraduate or postgraduate level, others may put more emphasis on practical or communication skills, and still others may prepare you particularly well for the foundation programme and life on the wards.
Henry Murphy says: “I think medical school is more of a process of maturing someone, getting them used to lifelong learning, and toughening them up a bit in order to help them cope as a doctor. A lot of the knowledge and day-to-day skills you actually use, you acquire after medical school.”
Some doctors think the differences between medical schools can last for several years, but fade over time. Anand Sundaralingam, an acute care common stem core trainee year 2 working at the Royal London Hospital says: “I think training at University College London (UCL) was to an exceptional standard. I notice it even now as a working doctor, four years post graduation, compared to colleagues who may have graduated elsewhere, although it’s not as obvious now compared to four years ago since many of us have undertaken the same postgraduate examinations which standardises training and learning.”
In a commentary on differences between medical school, McManus sums it up by saying that different sorts of applicants apply to different sorts of schools for different reasons, and different schools probably use different criteria and methods for selection. Medical schools have different philosophies, outlooks, and approaches to teaching; students have different clinical experiences; and, in the end, graduates of different medical schools end up in different careers.[11]
Medical schools have different teaching styles and traditions and this is no bad thing. The General Medical Council wants to encourage a diverse workforce and it is important that we have doctors from different backgrounds who bring different strengths, interests and aptitudes to care for and treat the many needs of the population.

(edited 9 years ago)

How do standards differ / affect students across medical schools?

Quick Reply

Related discussions

Latest

Trending

Trending

Articles for you