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Why is the integral of 1/x ln x?

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Reply 20
Original post by DFranklin
At the end of the day, a lot depends on how you've defined e, I think.

What, I thought e was just some irrational special number, I didn't know there were different e's?
Reply 21
Original post by notnek
You're right that integration is the reverse of differentiation. The integral of x^2 is x^3/3 because the derivative of x^3/3 is x^2.

But in the same way, can you look for something that differentiates to give 1/x? This is x^(-1) so using the same method as above, you may think that it's something involving x^0, but does this differentiate to give x^(-1)?

Since you haven't met logs or e yet, I'm not sure if you'll be able to get more of an explanation. I suggest either waiting until C3 or read a C3 textbook now / google it.

Yeah I thought x^0/0 which makes no sense because you can't divide by 0 and all that.. thats why I asked the teacher to elaborate but as you know here I am lol

I KIND OF met logs in FP1 Linear Laws thing but we haven't done it properly in C2 and we just winged the FP1 chapter by following laws of logs mindlessly... and indeed I have no idea what this mysterious irrational number e is ._.
I guess I will have to leave it until then yeah...
Reply 22
Original post by C0balt
Yeah I thought x^0/0 which makes no sense because you can't divide by 0 and all that.. thats why I asked the teacher to elaborate but as you know here I am lol

I KIND OF met logs in FP1 Linear Laws thing but we haven't done it properly in C2 and we just winged the FP1 chapter by following laws of logs mindlessly... and indeed I have no idea what this mysterious irrational number e is ._.
I guess I will have to leave it until then yeah...

At this stage I think it's best just to remember that derivatives are gradient functions i.e. they show how a function's graph is changing.

The gradient function of x^3/3 is x^2 so the integral of x^2 is x^3/3 (+c). But there is no function that you have come across so far that has gradient function 1/x.

There is a mysterious function ln(x) that you will meet in C3 that does have that property.
Original post by C0balt
What, I thought e was just some irrational special number, I didn't know there were different e's?


You have to realise that the number e has come from doing several limiting processes and numerical approximations. I don't think I have seen a fully algebraic proof that the derivative of e^x is e^x.You can say that e^x=1+x+x^2/2 +x^3/3 and see that it differentiates to itself but that series comes from the fact that the derivative of e^x is e^x.The best proof you are going to get is that the derivative of a^x=(a^(x+h)-a^x)/h(remember first principles of differentiation)=(a^h -1)*a^x)/h= a^x *(a^h-1)/h so the derivative of an exponential function is proportional to itself with the limit of (a^h-1)/h being different depending on the value of a and e is the special number that the derivative of e^x is exactly equal to itself.If we accept this than you can use as previously said the fact that 1/(dx/dy)=dy/dx to show that the derivative of lnx is 1/x.
(edited 9 years ago)
Reply 24
Original post by notnek
There is a mysterious function ln(x) that you will meet in C3 that does have that property.

great, something to look forward to :rolleyes:
Original post by C0balt
What, I thought e was just some irrational special number, I didn't know there were different e's?


There is only one e, however there are lots of different ways to define it, all of them being equivalent. A simpler example would be how you define the number 3. You could say that it is 1+1+1, or 1+2, or 2+1, or 2*2-1 etc. All of these definitions give the same number (3), but they are all slightly different definitions. In this case it is very easy to see that all those definitions of 3 are the same thing, but sometime it is not so simple.
Original post by C0balt
Hello
We were doing FP1 topic on calculus and the teacher was about to do an example using 1/x but he was like oops it's an exception and the integral of 1/x is actually ln x.

I have no idea why this is true (my teacher didn't know/couldn't explain) and I have searched on Google but explanations there are incomprehensible for me.
Is there any way for me to understand this thing having only done C1 and half of FP1 so far? Will I be able to understand it by the end of A2 FM?


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A very good way of seeing is is with the following proof which assumes that the natural log is the inverse of exponentiation. https://proofwiki.org/wiki/Derivative_of_Natural_Logarithm_Function/Proof_3
Original post by tombayes
Ok here is a 'basic i.e. non-formal' idea: the derivative of exe^x is itself. i.e. let y=exy=e^x then dydx=ex=y\frac{dy}{dx}=e^x=y

If we rearrange dydx=y \frac{dy}{dx}=y we see that 1ydy=dx\frac{1}{y}dy=dx now integrating both sides gives 1ydy=x+c\int \frac{1}{y}dy=x+c where c is constant but recall ex=y    x=lnye^x=y \implies x=ln y

so 1ydy=ln(y)+c\int \frac{1}{y}dy=ln(y)+c


For A-level students, you need to first learn implicit differentiation (I really mean the chain rule), then the above proof is the best you will get that you can understand.

However, you should understand this. There are large important parts of the A-level Maths that are introduced to you without proof, and not just this result you asked about here, so don't worry if you don't know why. You should only worry if you don't know that you don't know why.

On topic of exe^x, one popular definition is via power series expansion:

exp(x)=1+x11!+x22!+x33!+...exp(x) = 1+ \frac{x^1}{1!} + \frac{x^2}{2!}+ \frac{x^3}{3!}+ ...

Observe that it has the desired property that it (the RHS) differentiates to itself. In fact, it is easy to prove (you can try this), that this is the only (unique) power series that has this property - differentiate to itself.

You may notice, this definition however, has almost nothing to do with exe^x, which is just a power function with a wierd number for the power base. This where we are going to have to stop the explanations, because it takes a serious amount of leg work (You may learn the truth if you go to university for Maths, by second year you may learn this), and accept, that:

(1+11!+12!+13!+...)x=ex=exp(x)=1+x11!+x22!+x33!+...(1+ \frac{1}{1!} + \frac{1}{2!}+ \frac{1}{3!}+ ...)^x=e^x=exp(x) = 1+ \frac{x^1}{1!} + \frac{x^2}{2!}+ \frac{x^3}{3!}+ ...

More specifically look at just:

(1+11!+12!+13!+...)x=1+x11!+x22!+x33!+...(1+ \frac{1}{1!} + \frac{1}{2!}+ \frac{1}{3!}+ ...)^x= 1+ \frac{x^1}{1!} + \frac{x^2}{2!}+ \frac{x^3}{3!}+ ...

Clever factorization? Something obvious? No...Wish to know why? Time to apply for Maths at university:smile:.
Original post by C0balt
I don't see why ln x differentiates to 1/x in the first place and I don't know what log function is (Good start isn't it....). We sort of touched on logarithm as a part of FP1 chapter called Linear Law but we winged it by just using mysterious law of logs x.x

Ok I (kind of) am used to this log ab is log a+log b thing but uh...


Until you're comfortable with logs, you're not really going to be able to understand why the natural log differentiates to 1/x. You ought to become familiar with log functions and their behaviour first, and their relationship to power functions.
Original post by DFranklin
And I assume you prove the derivative of e^x by using the derivative of ln x and using similar reasoning... :smile:

[Obviously, the involvement of 'e' is a massive spanner in the works at A-level, since it's a completely unfamiliar number and the definitions of it are pretty intractable (1/n!\sum 1/n! is fairly easy to understand, but how the heck you work with the result is less so...)]


discussions of the graphs of 2x, 3x and their derivative graphs is a useful way to lead in to e... there should be a graph which coincides with its derivative graph.
Original post by the bear
discussions of the graphs of 2x, 3x and their derivative graphs is a useful way to lead in to e... there should be a graph which coincides with its derivative graph.


That's what my C3 teacher did.
Reply 31
Original post by chn.challenger
For A-level students, you need to first learn implicit differentiation (I really mean the chain rule), then the above proof is the best you will get that you can understand.

:confused::confused::confused::confused:

On topic of exe^x, one popular definition is via power series expansion:

exp(x)=1+x11!+x22!+x33!+...exp(x) = 1+ \frac{x^1}{1!} + \frac{x^2}{2!}+ \frac{x^3}{3!}+ ...

Observe that it has the desired property that it (the RHS) differentiates to itself. In fact, it is easy to prove (you can try this), that this is the only (unique) power series that has this property - differentiate to itself.

Yeah, it makes sense in my head, I haven't tried proper proof on paper but you know :P

You may notice, this definition however, has almost nothing to do with exe^x, which is just a power function with a wierd number for the power base. This where we are going to have to stop the explanations, because it takes a serious amount of leg work (You may learn the truth if you go to university for Maths, by second year you may learn this), and accept, that:

(1+11!+12!+13!+...)x=ex=exp(x)=1+x11!+x22!+x33!+...(1+ \frac{1}{1!} + \frac{1}{2!}+ \frac{1}{3!}+ ...)^x=e^x=exp(x) = 1+ \frac{x^1}{1!} + \frac{x^2}{2!}+ \frac{x^3}{3!}+ ...

More specifically look at just:

(1+11!+12!+13!+...)x=1+x11!+x22!+x33!+...(1+ \frac{1}{1!} + \frac{1}{2!}+ \frac{1}{3!}+ ...)^x= 1+ \frac{x^1}{1!} + \frac{x^2}{2!}+ \frac{x^3}{3!}+ ...

Clever factorization? Something obvious? No...Wish to know why? Time to apply for Maths at university:smile:.

I want to do so many things at uni and it's killing me :frown:
Original post by C0balt
:confused::confused::confused::confused:


For implicit differentiation, to find out why it is actually just an application of the chain rule, have a good think about why d(y2)dx=2ydydx\frac{d(y^2)}{dx}=2y\frac{dy}{dx}.
Reply 33
Original post by chn.challenger
For implicit differentiation, to find out why it is actually just an application of the chain rule, have a good think about why d(y2)dx=2ydydx\frac{d(y^2)}{dx}=2y\frac{dy}{dx}.

term i think i should check what a chain rule is... :rolleyes:
Reply 34
It's helpful to remember what the equations mean. By the definition of natural growth dy = ydx, that's the whole point if e, it is an infinite series of self growth.So logically of you look at this from the inverse perspective, you need to scale out all that infinite self growth, which is dy/y = dx.So the function of the area of x^-1 has the exact same 'self limiting' effect, hence the equivalence.
Reply 35
Original post by Ferrus
It's helpful to remember what the equations mean. By the definition of natural growth dy = ydx, that's the whole point if e, it is an infinite series of self growth.So logically of you look at this from the inverse perspective, you need to scale out all that infinite self growth, which is dy/y = dx.So the function of the area of x^-1 has the exact same 'self limiting' effect, hence the equivalence.

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