Planned justice doesn't work sorry. We need to let the spontaneous order of law help us. Intervention only makes victims worse and prevents us catching criminals.

Reply 7

Chlorophile

Original post by thisiswizardry

What people?

The overwhelming majority of people in this country who aren't religious fundamentalists? If you seriously think that people would be happy to abolish the justice system because of God, I think you are severely mistaken...

what's a god?

Original post by thisiswizardry

If only God judges us? :/

A 'Final Judgement' is completely pointless, and offers no benefit to the living. Hell offers no rehabilitation, does nothing to protect the living (since the 'accused' is already dead), and not deter crime very well since there's no proof it even exists, plus we never find out the results of the trial.

Reply 10

Olie

Original post by thisiswizardry

What people?

Hahah what? Are you denying the existence of atheism? And somehow I think we'll keep the justice system as it is thank you, rather than leaving justice to an imaginary entity.

Reply 11

jaffacake111

I genuinely had this conversation with a Christian - apparently she's "under grace" not law or something. Ludicrous!

Reply 12

Eva.Gregoria

Because if we didn't, bad people would have no repercussions and good people will continue to suffer.

That's the natural order of humanity. The horrible people would always have their way.

Reply 13

thisiswizardry

Original post by Olie

Hahah what? Are you denying the existence of atheism? And somehow I think we'll keep the justice system as it is thank you, rather than leaving justice to an imaginary entity.

I don't get your question

(edited 9 years ago)

Reply 14

thisiswizardry

Original post by jaffacake111

I genuinely had this conversation with a Christian - apparently she's "under grace" not law or something. Ludicrous!

What's ludicrous about that???

Reply 15

thisiswizardry

Original post by Guitarded

Prove it, you're just pointing out what your opinion is.

Reply 16

jaffacake111

Original post by jaffacake111

I genuinely had this conversation with a Christian - apparently she's "under grace" not law or something. Ludicrous!

She may very well be "under grace" (for what it is worth I see no good reason to believe she is) but that doesn't stop her being bound by the laws of our justice system.

The mentality that this kind of thinking allows for even in nice normal people fosters fanaticism.

That scares me :smile:

Reply 17

Guitarded

Original post by thisiswizardry

Prove it, you're just pointing out what your opinion is.

Ok, let me explain.... in the real world's judicial system we tend to punish people for two key purposes:
a) To deter people from committing the same crime (i.e. You hear in the news of shoplifters going to prison, therefore you are discouraged from doing the same).
b) To protect the public (i.e. Putting a killer in jail because they are dangerous).

Other reasons might be related to tradition, principal, rehabilitation, political purposes or simply as a way of making the victim feel better.

If people are going to Hell for whatever reason, however, it wouldn't fit any of these purposes. Since most people don't believe Hell exists (and there's no reason why anyone should since there's not really any evidence it exists), it's pretty ineffective as a crime or sin deterrent. Not only that but we never actually find out who goes to Hell and who doesn't, or for what acts people are actually punished. Sure, the Bible might give us a kind of guideline but that's not much to go on.

In terms of protecting the public... well, you're already dead by the time you go to Hell, so it makes no difference. Hell offers no rehabilitation since it's supposed to be eternal (and too late to impact life on Earth). Victims may feel better believing a criminal is in Hell, but it would have no impact on the victim if a killer was actually sent to Heaven since they would never know. We all assume Hitler has gone to Hell, but lets imagine that actually God thought, "It makes no effect on the real world where I send him, so I may as well let him into a part Heaven away from everyone else." Why would it matter? As far as I can come up with, the existence of Hell would serve no practical purpose.

And then there's the matter of free will, but that's a whole extra topic...

(edited 9 years ago)

Reply 18

thisiswizardry

Original post by Guitarded

Ok, let me explain.... in the real world's judicial system we tend to punish people for two key purposes:
a) To deter people from committing the same crime (i.e. You hear in the news of shoplifters going to prison, therefore you are discouraged from doing the same).
b) To protect the public (i.e. Putting a killer in jail because they are dangerous).

Other reasons might be related to tradition, principal, rehabilitation, political purposes or simply as a way of making the victim feel better.

If people are going to Hell for whatever reason, however, it wouldn't fit any of these purposes. Since most people don't believe Hell exists (Source?) (and there's no reason why anyone should since there's not really any evidence it exists (Nor any evidence saying hell doesn't exist), it's pretty ineffective as a crime or sin deterrent (That is a matter of opinion). Not only that but we never actually find out who goes to Hell and who doesn't, or for what acts people are actually punished. Sure, the Bible might give us a kind of guideline but that's not much to go on. (Elaborate pls)

In terms of protecting the public... well, you're already dead by the time you go to Hell, so it makes no difference., you can Hell offers no rehabilitation since it's supposed to be eternal (and too late to impact life on Earth) (Isn't that a great thing e.g: Jimmy Saville) . Victims may feel better believing a criminal is in Hell, but it would have no impact on the victim if a killer was actually sent to Heaven since they would never know. We all assume Hitler has gone to Hell, but lets imagine that actually God thought, "It makes no effect on the real world where I send him, so I may as well let him into a part Heaven away from everyone else." Why would it matter? As far as I can come up with, the existence of Hell would serve no practical purpose. (No, just no)

And then there's the matter of free will, but that's a whole extra topic... (indeed)

In bold

Reply 19

Guitarded

Original post by thisiswizardry

Okay, regardless of whether or not people believe hell exists, any form of punishment is going to be less effective as a crime deterrent if people don't *know convincingly* that it exists. It's like when you're on a school trip abroad and your teacher threatens to send naughty kids home, but to all the kids who think she's bluffing, it doesn't work as a threat. Only those who believe the punishment will actually happen are put off from being naughty.

Since the potential sinners walking the Earth haven't been provided with proper evidence for Hell's existence, it's not going to serve its full purpose as a crime deterrent. Real life prison on the other hand is something that we all know exists, and as we hear of people who do and don't go to prison and for what crimes (which we find out via the news, The Law Pages, etc), it's a more effective crime deterrent than if it was kept secret. With Hell, however, we do not find out who goes there or for what crimes. I don't know what rules I'm allowed to live by (will I go to Hell for real world crimes such as stealing? What if I'm starving though?). The only thing that informs me is the Bible, which has been translated and reinterpreted thousands of times over many centuries and therefore I don't consider reliable enough to put me off stealing. (Not that I actually steal, but that's because of threat of real-world punishment as well as having a sense of morality).

Hell offers no rehabilitation since it's supposed to be eternal (and too late to impact life on Earth) (Isn't that a great thing e.g: Jimmy Saville)

My point is that there is no need for Saville to go to Hell. He is no longer a threat to the living because he is already dead. Perhaps there is a place in Hell where he can be rehabilitated, i.e. turned to good. But what use is this in an eternal Hell?