The Student Room Group

Is UK government taking the "right" groups of immigrants in?

I live in manchester, I found that in the China town and curry mile here, there are plenty of residence who are not well educated if not uneducated at all (mostly first generation immigrants though, their children are mostly educated), and because of the lack of education and skills, some of them have no choice but stick to the community which they belong to and somehow refuse to embrace the value of the society outside.

Obviously the government would want someone who comes into their country adapt better to the way they live, accept the values they hold and actually mix with the majority of people, by that I don't mean they should give up their own culture and heritage, I mean they are willing to blend into this society, and intuitively you would think those international students are a better choice than those who come into this country with nothing but seeks a better life.

I don't really understand the immigration policy the UK government made which makes it so hard for non EU students to get a job after graduation but same time issuing residence card to those who lives nowhere outside their own community?

(And please don't get me wrong, I am not saying these people deserve less rights, I am just talking from the government's perspective)

so what is the reason?
Reply 1
Original post by like your phoebe
I live in manchester, I found that in the China town and curry mile here, there are plenty of residence who are not well educated if not uneducated at all (mostly first generation immigrants though, their children are mostly educated), and because of the lack of education and skills, some of them have no choice but stick to the community which they belong to and somehow refuse to embrace the value of the society outside.

Obviously the government would want someone who comes into their country adapt better to the way they live, accept the values they hold and actually mix with the majority of people, by that I don't mean they should give up their own culture and heritage, I mean they are willing to blend into this society, and intuitively you would think those international students are a better choice than those who come into this country with nothing but seeks a better life.

I don't really understand the immigration policy the UK government made which makes it so hard for non EU students to get a job after graduation but same time issuing residence card to those who lives nowhere outside their own community?

(And please don't get me wrong, I am not saying these people deserve less rights, I am just talking from the government's perspective)

so what is the reason?

the reason is that they have lots of babies and uk had a ageing population and previously women were on average producing less than two babies so the population shrinks, which in some people's eyes who manage the country is supposedly an issue.
of course it is only a short term solution as their descendants will not continue the trend and end up having only one or two children late in life which means more and more never ending immigration.

according to barbara spectre and other jewish people, if european populations decline and europe isn't overpopulated then "europe won't survive". so it's a good thing we have jews playing a leading role in ensuring europes "survival"(mass overpopulation)
(edited 9 years ago)
Reply 2
I do think you have a point OP. If it were my choice then I'd stop all non-EU immigration from nations which don't have a GDP per capita above $30k. The exceptions would be those who are willing to serve a decade in the military and those who can prove they have a job offer paying in excess of 30k. I would give international students 12 months to find employment after their degree. I would also stop spouses gaining citizenship.
Reply 3
Original post by Rakas21
I do think you have a point OP. If it were my choice then I'd stop all non-EU immigration from nations which don't have a GDP per capita above $30k. The exceptions would be those who are willing to serve a decade in the military and those who can prove they have a job offer paying in excess of 30k. I would give international students 12 months to find employment after their degree. I would also stop spouses gaining citizenship.


What would that achieve? More soldiers certainly aren't at all what this country needs, nor would be worth paying for. Surely a better requirement would be if they can fill a public sector vacancy that a Brit couldn't, or could do the job more cheaply for the same quality of service?

Also, why would the salary have to be £30k - that seems completely arbitrary, especially as salary varies by age, as well as regionally - your policy implies that a teacher or nurse etc from abroad can get a job in the UK in London, but not in the North-east where there is a relative shortage, and it also implies that an immigrant taking a more senior role (who then may have more dependents, more healthcare requirements and use up more public resources) who will likely be paid £30k should come at the expense of someone taking an entry level role but will be paid below your magic threshold.
Reply 4
Original post by FDR
What would that achieve? More soldiers certainly aren't at all what this country needs, nor would be worth paying for. Surely a better requirement would be if they can fill a public sector vacancy that a Brit couldn't, or could do the job more cheaply for the same quality of service?

Also, why would the salary have to be £30k - that seems completely arbitrary, especially as salary varies by age, as well as regionally - your policy implies that a teacher or nurse etc from abroad can get a job in the UK in London, but not in the North-east where there is a relative shortage, and it also implies that an immigrant taking a more senior role (who then may have more dependents, more healthcare requirements and use up more public resources) who will likely be paid £30k should come at the expense of someone taking an entry level role but will be paid below your magic threshold.


A subjective view presumably based on your aversion to an active foreign policy. I personally view somebody willing to give a decade and potentially their life as somebody deserving of permanent citizenship. I was open to them filling public sector vacancies however looking at medicine for example, their are 100,000 applicants for 20,000 training places so in many of these cases it's a funding training issue rather than needing more labour. While i do support spending cuts in the public sector, those jobs that remain should be reasonably compensated and between UK nationals and EU nationals (still eligible to come) i think we have a more than adequate supply.

The average salary is £26k, to be a net contributor to the state you need to be earning ~£15k already so £30k seems a good mark. I should add actually though that i want to make it easier for those from countries with a high GDP per capita (likely more educated and skilled) to immigrate so i'm not purely going for lower immigrant numbers. As i say above, we will still have EU immigration as well.
No. A quick and cheap filter would simply be to give immigrants an IQ test, and refuse to admit anyone with a score below 100.

Now British citizenship is actually pretty desirable, and Britain has a small population relative to the third world, so maybe we could even go to 110 or 120. But in that case we'd have to consider the consequences of a ruling class in 50 years that disproportionately lacks family ties to the country.
Reply 6
Original post by Rakas21
A subjective view presumably based on your aversion to an active foreign policy. I personally view somebody willing to give a decade and potentially their life as somebody deserving of permanent citizenship. I was open to them filling public sector vacancies however looking at medicine for example, their are 100,000 applicants for 20,000 training places so in many of these cases it's a funding training issue rather than needing more labour. While i do support spending cuts in the public sector, those jobs that remain should be reasonably compensated and between UK nationals and EU nationals (still eligible to come) i think we have a more than adequate supply.

The average salary is £26k, to be a net contributor to the state you need to be earning ~£15k already so £30k seems a good mark. I should add actually though that i want to make it easier for those from countries with a high GDP per capita (likely more educated and skilled) to immigrate so i'm not purely going for lower immigrant numbers. As i say above, we will still have EU immigration as well.


Ok, point taken on the foreign policy, but even if you only enlisted a fraction of those immigrants into the army, chances are they'd be sitting unproductively in the reserves costing the taxpayer money until something came for them to do. Secondly, wouldn't language and/or cultural differences potentially endanger British troops who serve alongside the foreigners on the frontline?

The problem with a high threshold is that it's pretty static - someone coming in and earning £30k straight off may be older and contribute less over their working life and reitre in the UK compared to a much younger immigrant earning less,but contributing more over their working life, as well as probably end up in London, where housing and some public services are most under pressure.

Given that the vast majority of the world's high income countries are already in the EU, surely those who are coming from outside should either meet skill shortages aren't met from within the EU or domestically (a reason why lots of South African and carribean nurses are recruited). In fact, importing healthcare labour is a great way to save money - if you need say 30,000 nurses a year, and you know you'll have to pay them £23k when they qualify, and you have to pay the cost of their training, then if you import 10,000 you'll still save on the training even if you pay them the same. Likewise with doctors etc.

It seems silly to target only high income countries from outside the EU when in reality there are only a handful, yet there is plenty of talented labour in countries like India, China, Indonesia that could contribute to the UK economy.
Reply 7
Original post by FDR
QFA


Ok, point taken on the foreign policy, but even if you only enlisted a fraction of those immigrants into the army, chances are they'd be sitting unproductively in the reserves costing the taxpayer money until something came for them to do. Secondly, wouldn't language and/or cultural differences potentially endanger British troops who serve alongside the foreigners on the frontline?


That's a possibility but the UK's foreign policy since the collapse of the Cold War has involved 3 major ground wars, 2 air wars and a number of smaller engagements before we even consider special operations. Chances are that as things stand, they won't be sitting around long and that still does not detract from my point that somebody giving their life for our country is deserving of citizenship. Language would not be an issue since we still have minimum standards and cultural differences are probably overdone since Muslims already serve.

The problem with a high threshold is that it's pretty static - someone coming in and earning £30k straight off may be older and contribute less over their working life and reitre in the UK compared to a much younger immigrant earning less,but contributing more over their working life, as well as probably end up in London, where housing and some public services are most under pressure.


That's a valid criticism but we have to weigh numbers, the lower the wage, the more immigration. Not a bad thing per say but we do need them to be net contributors.

Given that the vast majority of the world's high income countries are already in the EU, surely those who are coming from outside should either meet skill shortages aren't met from within the EU or domestically (a reason why lots of South African and carribean nurses are recruited).


The Anglosphere alone has ~400 million people who meet the threshold, developed Asia has another ~200 million so even if we be harsh and exclude everywhere else that's still a pool of 600 million people who are disproportionately educated, disproportionately from countries with low crime rates ect.. and that's on top of the EU immigration which is over 200,000 per year. Bear in mind my comment that i'd like to make it easier for these immigrants to come.. and because of the growing global economy we can review what level we want it at or add more countries to that list.

Essentially, we simply don't really need the third world right now.

In fact, importing healthcare labour is a great way to save money - if you need say 30,000 nurses a year, and you know you'll have to pay them £23k when they qualify, and you have to pay the cost of their training, then if you import 10,000 you'll still save on the training even if you pay them the same. Likewise with doctors etc.


That's true however a graduate who gets a good grade in Medicine and has been subsidised by the state for 7 years should be getting a training contract at the end of it. I'd rather cut spending in the NHS and reallocate so that we don't have graduates taking menial jobs. This also includes overseas graduates of course. There are plenty of ways to cut spending elsewhere in the NHS and we have a sufficient graduate number.

It seems silly to target only high income countries from outside the EU when in reality there are only a handful, yet there is plenty of talented labour in countries like India, China, Indonesia that could contribute to the UK economy.


There are almost 700 million people in the aforementioned high income countries. In a decade we can either up the limit or add the Russians and Argentina since they may cross that threshold.
Here is an interesting article on EU immigration

http://immigrationproblemuk.blogspot.co.uk/
Original post by Rakas21
I do think you have a point OP. If it were my choice then I'd stop all non-EU immigration from nations which don't have a GDP per capita above $30k. The exceptions would be those who are willing to serve a decade in the military and those who can prove they have a job offer paying in excess of 30k. I would give international students 12 months to find employment after their degree. I would also stop spouses gaining citizenship.


What about people who simply want to improve their lot without depending on the state?
Original post by felamaslen
What about people who simply want to improve their lot without depending on the state?


Unfortunately we can only help so many. They may not wish to depend on the state but if they fail to find a high paying job we're hardly going to let them starve or die from disease.
Original post by Rakas21
Unfortunately we can only help so many. They may not wish to depend on the state but if they fail to find a high paying job we're hardly going to let them starve or die from disease.


True, but I wish it weren't. :frown:
what values are we talking about? going out 3 am in the midnight and getting drunk and smashed and wake up at someone else house?
(edited 9 years ago)
Priority should be given to immigrants of European descent. And immigration from Muslim countries should be banned in its entirety !!
(edited 9 years ago)
Just let me finish

Yes , there is a problem.

however labour and conservative want to maintain the current immigration system, so I don't see how this will solve anything

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