Cameron defends letter to Islamic leaders

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It is not clear to me that Moslem terrorism springing from IS, Taliban and AQAP activity is related to western countries' actions in the Moslem world. IS started in Syria; the Taliban came to prominence when the Soviets were influential in Afghanistan.

These groups (especially IS) want to dominate, first of all, the Moslem world and punishing the west for its intervention in aiding Iraqis, Kurds or Syrians fighting against them, or commenting in news media on Islam, is a secondary operation which they leave to European natives.

Err correct me if I'm wrong but didn't IS start in Jordan/Iraq? They transmogrified to IS after the invasion of Iraq/other events. How can you say that its not clear that terrorism is related to western action in the Muslim world, and yet claim that these groups are intent on "punishing the west" for its 'intervention' in Muslim countries?

Reply 101

R£SP£CT

Original post by Marco1

Muslims, whether you like it or not, are not a separate entity but part of the human race. They should start acting like it instead of always seeking to lay blame outside of their religious community. I'm tired of this partisan, primitive tribal, 'us against them' mindset Muslims have. They are not special. No one is more special than anyone else. We are all part of the human race. Muslims should do more to gel with Western society and seek to find a way to keep their religiosity out of the realm of secular arenas, such as employment, government and social institutions. It's this almost narcissistic insistence on wearing different clothes than is mandatory for others (e.g. the NHS, the Police), special prayer times while at work, etc which creates resentment and tension and a feeling of unfairness. It is the UK not the Middle East, so grow up and get with the programme. Shut up, adapt, put up, or get out.

All muslims are humans! A generalisation that I'd agree with! Muslims HAVE their own problems with each other and are actively dealing with them without any major repercussion. Muslims should do more? What on earth are you referring to? We've integrated as much as humanly possible. You really need to stop looking at things through a magnifying glass :lol:

. I'm not even going to touch upon the clothes issue because it's quite self explanatory. I also don't see the issue with prayers. Firstly most of the people I know tend to pray in their OWN time i.e. during dinner breaks. And for arguments sake if it does happen during work time, if an employer is happy for a employee or a group of employees to pray during work hours then I don't see what the problem is? A FYI the concept of Muslims abiding by the laws of their home country, is something that is enshrined in Islamic law, providing that there is no major contradiction/clash of laws.

I am unconvinced by your argument above. The notion of Islamaphobia is clearly a phantom used by Islamist sympathisers to further advance their religious cause and deflect legitimate criticism. It's an avoidance tool. Any manifestation of anger towards the UK Muslim community is comparatively tiny and a natural reaction to the relentless fracturing of British social harmony Islam is exerting on it.

Not much of a Phantom when actual blood has been spilt? Refer back to my original post. I'm not going to go into the details of western foreign policy because quite frankly it would take pages and pages of text to make a point. Point being that Muslims have been actively targeted both in the media and everyday life. Muslims have been the target of Islamophobia and victims of it. The worst part is that the majority of British people do not have a problem with Muslims. We get on fine for the most part. But when a bunch of corrupt governments under the guise of freedom and democracy instil a campaign to target Muslims on day to day basis, it's eventually going to affect public opinion. A stage which we thankfully haven't reached here in Britain. Legitimate criticism is fine. I'm fully for this. Criticise it all you want. I'll happily take blame if I was responsible for something. But this has to be done in a respectful manner.: :lol:

Islam isn't "fracturing" British social harmony. Give me one example where religion has severed a crucial component of British social infrastructure?

You dare to use the Ottoman Empire as some sort of prop for your argument. Do you not know the Ottomans had incredible blood on their hands prior to that. They attacked and conquered regions of the Classical Western World.

Yes I am. I am not saying the Ottomans were perfect :lol:

There are a plethora of things that I disagree and resent entirely. But thats not the issue here. The issue is HOW and WHY the west carved up a once, in a general sense, unified Muslim entity.

Also, anyone that uses condescending phrases like, "You need to understand", in a debate, loses my academic respect instantly.

Apologies if it appeared that way, but many non-muslims have a distorted view on Islam and Muslims.

(edited 9 years ago)

Reply 102

R£SP£CT

Original post by JohnCrichton89

This is hilariously tragic to watch.
How castrated an emasculated do Englanders actually feel at this moment ?

Your great leader, after years of constant terror alert to actual Britons, mass sectarian and racially motivated rape and paedophilia directed at your own women and children, brutal and savage murders targeting the families of Britain................ has sent the Muslim immigrants a strongly worded letter.

At which point the Muslim communities told him where to stick it !

God save England ! cause nothing short or a miracle is needed to help you lot out of this.

How about the numerous home grown paedophilic rape crimes perpetrated by British ethnics? How about the Westminster Paedophilia scandal? How about Prince Andrew? I think we ought to send the Muslims a letter for that too!

Reply 103

Good bloke

Original post by R£SP£CT

I meant the specific intervention of bombing IS targets in support of the Kurds and the Iraqi government. IS is trying to terrorise the west into not helping Iraq and other rebel Moslems in Syria against IS as it tries to establish its initial territory in Iraq and Syria.

The west will not send in troops, other than special forces of course, but will use its air power and intelligence gathering against IS.

Are you saying that Iraq should not be supported in this way?

Reply 104

PopaPork

Original post by The_Internet

I did single out certain places ie: the Finsbury park mosque and how THEY should be singled out, and not making every single mosque in this country take collective responsibility for what happens at a few mosques.

I mean if you believe this is OK, I assume you're OK with sending leaflets out to every single catholic church telling them not to fiddle with kiddies?

Slightly different for Catholics as they have a body that represents them but I would have no issues if they were contacted (and I believe they were) when the kiddy fiddler issue raised it's head (again)

Muslims do not have this central body so the beast way would be to contact each mosque.

But why is it we are still seeing these mosque appear to preach their intolerance when we are also told the Muslim community is doing it's best to prevent this?

Tell me do you know of any muslim group that is protesting against the Luton center as I am unaware of ANY.

(edited 9 years ago)

Reply 105

PopaPork

Only institutions wishing to promote faith-based identity politics could object to Pickles’ letter

http://leftfootforward.org/2015/01/only-institutions-wishing-to-promote-faith-based-identity-politics-could-object-to-pickles-letter/

'But the problem has not disappeared. Last week’s Panorama, ‘After Paris – The Battle for British Islam’, highlighted the fact that hate preachers are still active in some mosques even today, where they seek to give an interpretation of Islam that creates a ‘them and us’ situation. This, according to one former prominent jihadist, is the first stage of radicalisation for foreign fighters.

As the presenter, John Ware wrote in The Independent

“The programme showed how Salafi Wahhabism is wreathed in anti-westernism, contempt for parliamentary democracy, reactionary attitudes to gender equality and gay rights, and disdain for other faiths.

“Through its UK-based adherents, this puritanical strain of Islam has taken on a life of its own here with a proliferation of Islamic teaching institutions, activist groups and Islamic satellite channels. It “takes young Muslims to the front door of violent extremists” said Sara Khan.”

Panorama paid particular attention to preachers such as Haitham al-Haddad, Murtaza Khan and Abu Usamah at-Thahabi, who are regular fixtures in mosques throughout the UK. There are others that were not mentioned, who are regularly given platforms to peddle ideas that, at best, can be described as dichotomous to British values and, at worst, a form of non-violent extremism that lays the foundations for the theological justifications of all Islamist-motivated terrorism. Some mosques and institutions have been regularly inviting people that preach exactly the kind of hate that Pickles is talking about in his letter.

To be sure, most Muslims recognise and appreciate the support from non-Muslims when anti-Muslim hatred is spouted by bigots. We have seen examples of this all over the world in initiatives like #illridewithyou. Indeed, there has been much support for combating this type of hatred – just has there has been for other types of xenophobia such as racism.

But the minute that our mosques are asked for support, the apologia brigade swings into action to complain that Muslims are being isolated or targeted to apologise for the terrorist acts of a few. Surely, they must realise that, at times like these, we need solidarity and not apologia if we are going to combat this cancer within our society?'

Reply 106

Thuggee

Original post by al_94

I don't know if they are allowed to join those armies either but the British Army has a history of killing Muslims for decades and they are actually at war with Islam. I know some western armies target civilians and also Britain stands with Israel who kill many innocent Palestinians.

muslims armies have killed muslims (as well as non-muslims) for over 1000 years, so thsi comment makes no sense. and pretty much all islamic militant target non-combatants, that is one of their traits. Non muslim forces dont target them at all, islamic groups also push their women and children out infront of bullets as human shields - something presumbaly their ideology has taught them to do.

david cameron has at least now said what pretty much the rest of the globe has been thinking for decedes but didnt say ( he should have said this a long time ago), certianly the labour government never made a peep about islamist groups, they seemingly encouraged their growth

Reply 107

Studentus-anonymous

People ripping into Muslims as if they are culpable and responsible for each and every other Muslim's actions completely unaware of the ironic xenophobia, racism, contempt and fear they profess Muslims themselves to hold is amusing to say the least.

Wanna discuss the actual problems with Islam? Cool.

I'm still waiting for someone to approach the issue without it being an obvious boogie-man sweeping generalization and justification for bigotry.

As has been said in this thread, ISLAM *Thunderclap, ominous riff* has succeeded in bringing down exactly 0 western countries, yet people still seem keen to talk about Islam from the perspective that it's an alien enemy of mankind where all Muslims are hell-bent on returning us to the stone age, and treating our Muslim populations as huge swarms of alien attackers bent on bringing us down from within rather than just another diverse wide group of British citizens with their own thoughts, feelings and issues.

If your argument starts from the position that the problem is with all Muslims everywhere and that our own citizens are to be guilty before proven of anything, or even assuming they're all guilty by association then honestly you need to log-ff until you learn what stereotyping and generalizing is, and why it's full retard.

The overreaction is also unhelpful. Even if Islam was some unified enemy of western civilization that is hell-bent on our destruction (ignoring that most Muslim violence is perpetrated against other Muslims) it's clearly a severely inept and minor threat. The best it has done recently is a 4-man gun rampage. Distressing? Yeah, genuinely dangerous and threatening our civilization and way of life? Nope.

Even 9/11 while a tragedy of great proportions, did little better than bring down America's wrath on some Muslims countries, directly and indirectly leading to a legacy of violence and death in said countries that are still playing out today.

In summary:

- Muslims aren't a hive-mind.
- Stop treating British Muslims citizens as some mutant alien outsiders, most have been here all their lives, born and raised, most do absolutely nothing to harm you or impede your way of life. When you do you out yourself as a bit of a xenophobe and maybe even racist.
- Islamic extremism isn't the end of the world, it's a measurably mediocre threat and danger to the west beyond some easy civilian casualties. A tragic loss, but not worth witch-hunting over or doing the fundie's work for them.
- The greatest victims of Islamic extremism is other Muslims. This is all you need to know to understand the above.
- Legitimate and proportional criticism is fine and dandy, try it.

Reply 108

lostwanderer

I dont see anything wrong with the letter. We can't just stay silent and ignore the issue of British Muslims leaving for Syria to join terrorist groups. The fact is,something needs to be done,and it cant just be Theresa May and her anti-terrorism reforms, it has to be from within the muslim community also. And the best place to start? Mosques