“Rape Culture” can a person be “too drunk to consent” and an active participant?
No sane person would argue that someone who is unconscious or incoherent is capable of consenting. If it was that simple, there would be no argument about “Rape Culture” in regards to University. But those situations don’t cover all the ambiguities. My question is this; Is it possible for someone to be a rape victim if they are an enthusiastic participant during the encounter? Since I know some people prefer to split hairs, in order to avoid addressing the actual question, let me paint a specific scenario that I believe to be a common occurrence on college campuses.
A female who is clearly intoxicated, engages in what appears to be consensual sexual activity with one or more guys. The female is usually naive or inexperienced. There is no clear intimidation or coercion involved. She performs actions such as undressing herself, undressing others, talking dirty, assuming positions, etc. I’m not trying to be unnecessarily graphic, I just want to be clear. Her inhibitions and judgment are likely impaired but her cognizance is clearly there. The whole sexual escapade is conducted in a manner which is intentionally degrading towards the girl. The male participant/s actually enhance his/their enjoyment through the act of degrading her. The likelihood that while sober, she would be too inhibited or prudent to engage in such activity is an additional turn on for him/them. Then afterwords, the next morning perhaps, the male participant/s revel in her continued humiliation as she has to come to terms with the event.
Is that situation Rape? Legally I suspect it is not, or should not be. Morally I consider it to be rape though. Yes the victim willingly put themselves in that position. Yes the victim clearly consented. However, the situation I described is intentionally cruel, and predatory. Is it fair to say that sex which is deliberately cruel and predatory toward another is rape?
I have spent a considerable amount of time at various Universities all over the world. Unfortunately, the scenario I described is far from fiction. In every version of this type of situation I have encountered, there is a large portion of the student body which choose to support or even applaud the perpetrators. What’s worse is almost everyone condemns the victim. That’s why it’s referred to as a “Rape Culture.”
A female who is clearly intoxicated, engages in what appears to be consensual sexual activity with one or more guys. The female is usually naive or inexperienced. There is no clear intimidation or coercion involved. She performs actions such as undressing herself, undressing others, talking dirty, assuming positions, etc. I’m not trying to be unnecessarily graphic, I just want to be clear. Her inhibitions and judgment are likely impaired but her cognizance is clearly there. The whole sexual escapade is conducted in a manner which is intentionally degrading towards the girl. The male participant/s actually enhance his/their enjoyment through the act of degrading her. The likelihood that while sober, she would be too inhibited or prudent to engage in such activity is an additional turn on for him/them. Then afterwords, the next morning perhaps, the male participant/s revel in her continued humiliation as she has to come to terms with the event.
Is that situation Rape? Legally I suspect it is not, or should not be. Morally I consider it to be rape though. Yes the victim willingly put themselves in that position. Yes the victim clearly consented. However, the situation I described is intentionally cruel, and predatory. Is it fair to say that sex which is deliberately cruel and predatory toward another is rape?
I have spent a considerable amount of time at various Universities all over the world. Unfortunately, the scenario I described is far from fiction. In every version of this type of situation I have encountered, there is a large portion of the student body which choose to support or even applaud the perpetrators. What’s worse is almost everyone condemns the victim. That’s why it’s referred to as a “Rape Culture.”
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So you seriously think that if a girl goes out and gets smashed and hooks up with guys of her own free will, she was raped simply because she was drunk?
Please do tell me why a guy in the same situation would not be considered to have been raped.. Why is alcohol only an excuse for women?
Also, why can't we apply the same logic to other things.. Like drunk driving. After all, according to your logic a women no longer becomes responsible for her actions after drinking alcohol.
Please do tell me why a guy in the same situation would not be considered to have been raped.. Why is alcohol only an excuse for women?
Also, why can't we apply the same logic to other things.. Like drunk driving. After all, according to your logic a women no longer becomes responsible for her actions after drinking alcohol.
Original post by Spetznaaz
So you seriously think that if a girl goes out and gets smashed and hooks up with guys of her own free will, she was raped simply because she was drunk?
Please do tell me why a guy in the same situation would not be considered to have been raped.. Why is alcohol only an excuse for women?
Also, why can't we apply the same logic to other things.. Like drunk driving. After all, according to your logic a women no longer becomes responsible for her actions after drinking alcohol.
Please do tell me why a guy in the same situation would not be considered to have been raped.. Why is alcohol only an excuse for women?
Also, why can't we apply the same logic to other things.. Like drunk driving. After all, according to your logic a women no longer becomes responsible for her actions after drinking alcohol.
Read again. I said the legally, this situation is not, and should not be considered rape. I am making a moral judgment on certain behaviors, not a legal one.
Rape by definition (non-legal) is forced sex.
Was she forced to have sex? No.
Was it then rape? No.
Was she forced to have sex? No.
Was it then rape? No.
Be pedantic over the precise definition if you want. I make little moral distinction between someone who use force and someone who uses exploitation, when they are aware that their actions will have similar consequences in the harm done to another.
I'm not condemning all drunken sex. I'm condemning the predatory kind of drunken sex. It is a common occurrence, and it should not be deemed acceptable.
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I'm not condemning all drunken sex. I'm condemning the predatory kind of drunken sex. It is a common occurrence, and it should not be deemed acceptable.
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Original post by ckingalt
Be pedantic over the precise definition if you want. I make little moral distinction between someone who use force and someone who uses exploitation, when they are aware that their actions will have similar consequences in the harm done to another.
I'm not condemning all drunken sex. I'm condemning the predatory kind of drunken sex. It is a common occurrence, and it should not be deemed acceptable.
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I'm not condemning all drunken sex. I'm condemning the predatory kind of drunken sex. It is a common occurrence, and it should not be deemed acceptable.
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Without a definition you can have no context.
Well if someone's drunk and gets behind the wheel of a car and kills someone, then they're treated as fully responsible. I don't see why this should be any different.
Original post by Spetznaaz
So you seriously think that if a girl goes out and gets smashed and hooks up with guys of her own free will, she was raped simply because she was drunk?
Please do tell me why a guy in the same situation would not be considered to have been raped.. Why is alcohol only an excuse for women?
Also, why can't we apply the same logic to other things.. Like drunk driving. After all, according to your logic a women no longer becomes responsible for her actions after drinking alcohol.
Please do tell me why a guy in the same situation would not be considered to have been raped.. Why is alcohol only an excuse for women?
Also, why can't we apply the same logic to other things.. Like drunk driving. After all, according to your logic a women no longer becomes responsible for her actions after drinking alcohol.
It is not only an excuse for women. (Though raping a men is much more difficult, due to some biological processes, we all know ... and women have often sadly less value in our society, so that explains, the higher rate of offenses.)
And yes, if you would allow a totally drunk person to drive and you could have hindered him, then you are responsible, too!!! Intoxination is not a free ticket! When you are dealing with e.g. extasy, you are comitting a criminal offence and you are commiting it, because the state does not want his citizens to take dangerous drugs and thus also take people in front of court, who are not consuming it, but taking others to danger.
(And really, anybody decent wants a partner who is fully into it and aware of his senses. ... You would not sleep in an elderly home with a women with Alzheimer, who confuses yourself with her actual husband? Would you? According to your logic, that would be morally ok.)
(edited 9 years ago)
Original post by SnoochToTheBooch
Well if someone's drunk and gets behind the wheel of a car and kills someone, then they're treated as fully responsible. I don't see why this should be any different.
Yeah, but when somebody drunk gets hit by a car and gets killed the driver is fully responsible, too. When you tell a drunk person stand in fron of my car and then I driver towards you and you are still able to jump away, then you would be persecuted as well, even if the victim would have been so careless, because he was drunk and then to slow to get out of the way.
When your friends get drunk and want to start a fight, you protect him from doing a stupidity by holding him back and not laugh on his state and let him get in trouble. As well as you would not fight with a drunken stranger, but just go away. We have a responsibility for each other!
(edited 9 years ago)
Original post by ckingalt
Read again. I said the legally, this situation is not, and should not be considered rape. I am making a moral judgment on certain behaviors, not a legal one.
I read it fine the first time.
Your logic confuses me.. You agree that that the law is correct in not considering the situation rape, yet you believe yourself that the situation is rape.. the ****?
Original post by Nathanielle
It is not only an excuse for women. (Though raping a men is much more difficult, due to some biological processes, we all know ... and women have often sadly less value in our society, so that explains, the higher rate of offenses.)
And yes, if you would allow a totally drunk person to drive and you could have hindered him, then you are responsible, too!!! Intoxination is not a free ticket! When you are dealing with e.g. extasy, you are comitting a criminal offence and you are commiting it, because the state does not want his citizens to take dangerous drugs and thus also take people in front of court, who are not consuming it, but taking others to danger.
(And really, anybody decent wants a partner who is fully into it and aware of his senses. ... You would not sleep in an elderly home with a women with Alzheimer, who confuses yourself with her actual husband? Would you? According to your logic, that would be morally ok.)
And yes, if you would allow a totally drunk person to drive and you could have hindered him, then you are responsible, too!!! Intoxination is not a free ticket! When you are dealing with e.g. extasy, you are comitting a criminal offence and you are commiting it, because the state does not want his citizens to take dangerous drugs and thus also take people in front of court, who are not consuming it, but taking others to danger.
(And really, anybody decent wants a partner who is fully into it and aware of his senses. ... You would not sleep in an elderly home with a women with Alzheimer, who confuses yourself with her actual husband? Would you? According to your logic, that would be morally ok.)
If it's not only an excuse for women then why do you always hear "if she's too drunk" and never "if he's too drunk"? When has there been a case of a woman being convicted of rape due to the man being too intoxicated to consent? (edit - sexual assault rather, we all know the stupid wording of the law)
I'm not really sure what the **** your on about in the next bit... but taking ecstasy is not a criminal offence, driving on it is however just the same as with alcohol.. and of course you are responsible for your actions, i was of course making a point with my last sentence - That just because you are drunk does not absolve responsibilities for your actions.
How the hell does my logic say that it's morally okay to sleep with old alzheimer sufferers?
Seriously what are you trying to say?
(edited 9 years ago)
Original post by Nathanielle
Yeah, but when somebody drunk gets hit by a car and gets killed the driver is fully responsible, too.
Well that really depends on the situation. Did the drunk person walk into the road or the driver not pay full attention?
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(edited 9 years ago)
There's a certain amount of onus on the other party to say, "do you know what... you're not in a fit state to consent..." in my opinion. The problem is that it's all down to interpretation. What one person could define as intoxicated but capable, another could describe as incapacitated.
Original post by Spetznaaz
If it's not only an excuse for women then why do you always hear "if she's too drunk" and never "if he's too drunk"? When has there been a case of a woman being convicted of rape due to the man being too intoxicated to consent?
1) How many men accused women that they have been raped at all?
2) Do I really need to go into detail to explain you, how it works? Think about biology and you might get a hint?
but taking ecstasy is not a criminal offence,
driving on it is however just the same as with alcohol.. and of course you are responsible for your actions, i was of course making a point with my last sentence - That just because you are drunk does not absolve responsibilities for your actions.
Yeah, you are responsible for your actions, but not responsible for being a victim in consequence of your actions. And it depends on the degree of intoxination and of the drug you took. (And looking at our law system, you will notice, that there were cases, even really strange ones, where a women was not charged for murder because of temporary psychological illness and had not spent time in psychatry, because she was no more ill at the point of trial. Thus it is really decided on a case by case basis, but as most people don't rape anyone or just have sex simply because they are drunk, it is not seen as extenuating circumstances by the law.)
How the hell does my logic say that it's morally okay to sleep with old alzheimer sufferers?
Well, your argument is that consent is consent, no matter in what state the person is. And that the other person is not responsible to take care of, that the other person is really acting on her own will.
Original post by DiddyDec
Well that really depends on the situation. Did the drunk person I op walk into the road or fid the driver not pay full attention?
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Yeah, you are right, when the driver has no possibility to seen it coming, he has no choice. But with a rape case it would be the same, you would look at all the evidence and then judge. (Although it is pretty difficult to compare the two cases, as accidantly stepping out of the dark and hit a car and being actively engaged (what you need to be, to have sex/rape, you need to want it to happen) are two different things.)
Original post by Nathanielle
1) How many men accused women that they have been raped at all?
2) Do I really need to go into detail to explain you, how it works? Think about biology and you might get a hint?
2) Do I really need to go into detail to explain you, how it works? Think about biology and you might get a hint?
If you are seriously proposing that men don't accuse women of rape because a man couldn't get a hard on if he was being raped then.. i don't even..
Really? It is legal in the UK to consume ecstasy? (Small hint: it isn't. You can get up to 7 years in prison, by possessing it, which is already fulfilled by grapping it with your hand and putting it your mouth. https://www.gov.uk/penalties-drug-possession-dealing)
Yes really. Being under the influence or the act of consumption are not criminal offences in the U.K (in some other countries, yes they are), you just proved it yourself. Possession is the crime.
Yeah, you are responsible for your actions, but not responsible for being a victim in consequence of your actions. And it depends on the degree of intoxination and of the drug you took. (And looking at our law system, you will notice, that there were cases, even really strange ones, where a women was not charged for murder because of temporary psychological illness and had not spent time in psychatry, because she was no more ill at the point of trial. Thus it is really decided on a case by case basis, but as most people don't rape anyone or just have sex simply because they are drunk, it is not seen as extenuating circumstances by the law.)
Choosing to go back to someones house on the pretence of sex, choosing to undress yourself, choosing to kiss them, choosing to suck their.. you get the picture. These are choices and being drunk does not mean you are not responsible for them.
Yes, if you are so drunk you have no idea what's going on, some guy takes you to his car and has sex with you while you are barely conscious , that's rape.
Well, your argument is that consent is consent, no matter in what state the person is. And that the other person is not responsible to take care of, that the other person is really acting on her own will.
That is not my argument.
My argument, which the law agrees with is as follows:
Drunken consent is still consent.
A person (although when it comes to the law this only really applies to females) can be unable to consent due to intoxication (i.e Too drunk to consent).
The level of intoxication of the other individual should also be taken into account (which i think it is in law)
In Op's example a girl consented to everything, but apparently was raped simply because she was drunk and may not have taken such actions while sober. It's like when a bloke gets smashed, wakes up next to a fat bird with little recollection, then decides he was raped. It doesn't happen because we just accept it was a stupid mistake and promise ourselves never to get that drunk in the future.
(edited 9 years ago)
Original post by ckingalt
Read again. I said the legally, this situation is not, and should not be considered rape. I am making a moral judgment on certain behaviors, not a legal one.
see that's where you're wrong my brother; the law considers it to be rape; even though technically speaking it isn't.
it isn't as:
1) she got drunk herself. NO ONE told/forced her to drink as many shots as she had. she did it all willingly (and unless someone tapes or records this kind of a one night stand, they might find themselves behind bars)
2) she consented either through words, deeds or anything else (e.g. "buy me another drink", *pulling the guys to her apartment*; or *body language flirtation whilst sober* e.t.c)
3) she then accuses said guys of rape; even though she instigated and reveled in the whole thing; but then wakes up, realizes that 'sober her' wouldn't have been so slutty and then sues the guys for rape..
4) i feel that this country sordidly detests and denounces the fact that guys exist in the U.K. this is evidenced by the new 'rape' laws announced by the DPP and the fact that even though both parties are drunk, if the girl cries rape; she is automatically given privacy and an 'innocent' status; despite the fact that it May be a false accusation (45% of rape cries are false allegations; yet nothing is done to them to deter the females of going out and doing the same rape cry; thereby damaging the credibility of true, authentic rape cries. this statement is for all feminists that quote me.)
5) evidence of the crap that exists in the western world:
**only after have you gone through Every link, will i then answer your question. i say this, as i only evidence one website, but in said website, are various links that dispose any and all claims regarding the fact that false allegations are something trivial and to be ignored**
http://www.avoiceformalestudents.com/avfms-mega-post-10-reasons-false-rape-accusations-are-common/
Original post by theDanIdentity
see that's where you're wrong my brother; the law considers it to be rape; even though technically speaking it isn't.
it isn't as:
1) she got drunk herself. NO ONE told/forced her to drink as many shots as she had. she did it all willingly (and unless someone tapes or records this kind of a one night stand, they might find themselves behind bars)
2) she consented either through words, deeds or anything else (e.g. "buy me another drink", *pulling the guys to her apartment*; or *body language flirtation whilst sober* e.t.c)
3) she then accuses said guys of rape; even though she instigated and reveled in the whole thing; but then wakes up, realizes that 'sober her' wouldn't have been so slutty and then sues the guys for rape..
4) i feel that this country sordidly detests and denounces the fact that guys exist in the U.K. this is evidenced by the new 'rape' laws announced by the DPP and the fact that even though both parties are drunk, if the girl cries rape; she is automatically given privacy and an 'innocent' status; despite the fact that it May be a false accusation (45% of rape cries are false allegations; yet nothing is done to them to deter the females of going out and doing the same rape cry; thereby damaging the credibility of true, authentic rape cries. this statement is for all feminists that quote me.)
5) evidence of the crap that exists in the western world:
**only after have you gone through Every link, will i then answer your question. i say this, as i only evidence one website, but in said website, are various links that dispose any and all claims regarding the fact that false allegations are something trivial and to be ignored**
http://www.avoiceformalestudents.com/avfms-mega-post-10-reasons-false-rape-accusations-are-common/
it isn't as:
1) she got drunk herself. NO ONE told/forced her to drink as many shots as she had. she did it all willingly (and unless someone tapes or records this kind of a one night stand, they might find themselves behind bars)
2) she consented either through words, deeds or anything else (e.g. "buy me another drink", *pulling the guys to her apartment*; or *body language flirtation whilst sober* e.t.c)
3) she then accuses said guys of rape; even though she instigated and reveled in the whole thing; but then wakes up, realizes that 'sober her' wouldn't have been so slutty and then sues the guys for rape..
4) i feel that this country sordidly detests and denounces the fact that guys exist in the U.K. this is evidenced by the new 'rape' laws announced by the DPP and the fact that even though both parties are drunk, if the girl cries rape; she is automatically given privacy and an 'innocent' status; despite the fact that it May be a false accusation (45% of rape cries are false allegations; yet nothing is done to them to deter the females of going out and doing the same rape cry; thereby damaging the credibility of true, authentic rape cries. this statement is for all feminists that quote me.)
5) evidence of the crap that exists in the western world:
**only after have you gone through Every link, will i then answer your question. i say this, as i only evidence one website, but in said website, are various links that dispose any and all claims regarding the fact that false allegations are something trivial and to be ignored**
http://www.avoiceformalestudents.com/avfms-mega-post-10-reasons-false-rape-accusations-are-common/
Have a look at R v Bree.
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Original post by DiddyDec
i know, but this is one successful case.. and he even Had to appeal! meaning his life is now messed up to some degree (he probably had no friends, jobs, family or any form of happiness left); and would've been permanently screwed HAD he not appealed..
1) what about the chick who made the false accusation...? what does she get in return?
2) how is it fair that a girl can (upon waking up and either realizing that the guy isn't goodlooking therefore by her logic she was raped; or for some other reason); attempt to mess a guys' life up for the banter... and even after its' been proven false, she still Gets away with it..!?!
3) what about all the other times guys have gone to bed with a chick, woken up with her; and Realized that *They* (that is, the GUYS) were raped..? how come that isn't technically classed as rape and carries no conviction as long as when a woman claims rape..?
every single link on this first page would back my statements up:
https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=male+raped+by+female&oq=male+raped+by+female&aqs=chrome..69i57.4525j0j7&sourceid=chrome&es_sm=93&ie=UTF-8
Original post by theDanIdentity
i know, but this is one successful case.. and he even Had to appeal! meaning his life is now messed up to some degree (he probably had no friends, jobs, family or any form of happiness left); and would've been permanently screwed HAD he not appealed..
1) what about the chick who made the false accusation...? what does she get in return?
2) how is it fair that a girl can (upon waking up and either realizing that the guy isn't goodlooking therefore by her logic she was raped; or for some other reason); attempt to mess a guys' life up for the banter... and even after its' been proven false, she still Gets away with it..!?!
3) what about all the other times guys have gone to bed with a chick, woken up with her; and Realized that *They* (that is, the GUYS) were raped..? how come that isn't technically classed as rape and carries no conviction as long as when a woman claims rape..?
every single link on this first page would back my statements up:
https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=male+raped+by+female&oq=male+raped+by+female&aqs=chrome..69i57.4525j0j7&sourceid=chrome&es_sm=93&ie=UTF-8
1) what about the chick who made the false accusation...? what does she get in return?
2) how is it fair that a girl can (upon waking up and either realizing that the guy isn't goodlooking therefore by her logic she was raped; or for some other reason); attempt to mess a guys' life up for the banter... and even after its' been proven false, she still Gets away with it..!?!
3) what about all the other times guys have gone to bed with a chick, woken up with her; and Realized that *They* (that is, the GUYS) were raped..? how come that isn't technically classed as rape and carries no conviction as long as when a woman claims rape..?
every single link on this first page would back my statements up:
https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=male+raped+by+female&oq=male+raped+by+female&aqs=chrome..69i57.4525j0j7&sourceid=chrome&es_sm=93&ie=UTF-8
It isn't a false accusation. She genuinely thought she had been raped. Nobody should be punished for reporting what they believe was a crime.
If a man feels he has been raped then he should go to the police.
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