What's your view on the Ukraine conflict?
Do you guys sympathize with the rebels or not? Personally I do to a certain extent, I don't understand why Ukraine does not allow them to have a peaceful referendum similar to the one in Scotland. However I also know that this unrest is fueled by Russia and some people in the East are forced to sympathize with the rebels.
What is your view on this?
What is your view on this?
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I'm not really sure, all I know is that I really hate the thought of innocent people, especially children, suffering.
Personally, I think the Ukraine should surrender as I believe the only thing which they will gain from carrying on with the war is more deaths.
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I thought Stalin's Russia was long gone. Why is Russia being such a p***k in this day and age? Maybe they just want to intimidate USA.
Original post by Raymat
I thought Stalin's Russia was long gone. Why is Russia being such a p***k in this day and age? Maybe they just want to intimidate USA.
Scared about losing influence, crisis at home, wanting to have the power russia had in its ussr heyday? Lots of reasons really. Declining powers generally lash out
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Started by the EU and specifically NATO when they started to build up forces along the Russian border and then supported the overthrow of the democratically elected President of Ukraine by a group whose core consisted of some neo-Nazis and fascists. When three EU Ministers and the Russian foreign minister made an agreement to have early elections in December, the EU violated this agreement when it supported the unconstitutional overthrow of Yanukovych just a couple of days later. A lot of bloodshed may have been avoided if the West hadn't been hell-bent on gaining Ukraine for its geopolitical purposes.
When Russia took the Crimea, they did so in an illegitimate referendum, as it did not include the option to remain with the status quo. Nevertheless, it seems to me that the Crimean people did legitimately want to join Russia.
The Ukrainian military has violated international law in its conduct in the war, but so have the rebels, who are essentially Russian soldiers. Russia should withdraw from Eastern Ukraine, keep the Crimea, and everybody should negotiate a peace settlement. I sympathise somewhat with the legitimate separatists, but not their Russian help.
When Russia took the Crimea, they did so in an illegitimate referendum, as it did not include the option to remain with the status quo. Nevertheless, it seems to me that the Crimean people did legitimately want to join Russia.
The Ukrainian military has violated international law in its conduct in the war, but so have the rebels, who are essentially Russian soldiers. Russia should withdraw from Eastern Ukraine, keep the Crimea, and everybody should negotiate a peace settlement. I sympathise somewhat with the legitimate separatists, but not their Russian help.
(edited 9 years ago)
Original post by bobthebuilder99
Do you guys sympathize with the rebels or not? Personally I do to a certain extent, I don't understand why Ukraine does not allow them to have a peaceful referendum similar to the one in Scotland. However I also know that this unrest is fueled by Russia and some people in the East are forced to sympathize with the rebels.
What is your view on this?
What is your view on this?
It's a complicated situation and Russia has had no small part in that.
Still, the Ukrainian army + it's militia allies (including neo-nazi groups) has in it's understandable effort to recapture the rebel regions, caused a lot of suffering to the local population.
Nothing fuels an insurgency and the separatist feelings behind it than the supposed sovereign authority over you sending in armed forces to crush and subjugate you.
If I was the Ukrainian leader I'd enter talks, and try and find a way to end the violence.
I'm of the mind that the eastern rebel provinces are gone now, lost to Kiev so Ukraine should make plans with that in mind.
It's not great but Ukraine needs to consolidate and fix it's economy and generally recover, and cement alliances with the EU/the west and enter NATO, so Russia can never again so easily attack it.
Right now it'll never get NATO membership because that'd be a de faction declaration of war between the west and Russia and all the nuclear escalation that entails.
While Ukraine keeps fighting it cannot deal with it's collapsing economy, it cannot more firmly align itself with the west, and even if it does manage to take the rebel regions, it will have to deal with the man-power and resource sink of a very long term, even permanent insurgency/civil unrest in the east.
I think the possibility of compromise and peaceful conclusion rapidly eroded the minute the first Ukrainian shells started landing on civilians in Donetsk.
So yeah, I guess there's some sympathy for the rebels, but I sympathize with all the victims of the current proxy-war farce.
Original post by bobthebuilder99
Do you guys sympathize with the rebels or not? Personally I do to a certain extent, I don't understand why Ukraine does not allow them to have a peaceful referendum similar to the one in Scotland. However I also know that this unrest is fueled by Russia and some people in the East are forced to sympathize with the rebels.
What is your view on this?
What is your view on this?
The reason I couldn't support a referendum is because, under these circumstances, there's no way it's going to be free and fair.
Just look at what happened in Crimea - the separatists stormed the Supreme Council and forced its members at gunpoint to declare independence, took over all the TV and radio channels they could and blocked the ones they couldn't, and cracked down hard on pro-Ukrainian protests while allowing pro-Russian ones to go ahead. Perhaps the Crimeans would have voted for independence anyway, but we'll never know because the pro-Ukrainian party was never given the chance to express its case.
Original post by Axion
Zero sympathies. The 'Rebels' are largely Russian army members which Putin keeps on denying. The Rebel leaders keep celebrating victories on social media too. Like the downing of the plane
Got any proof? No. That's what I thought.
If the downing of the plane was anything to do with Russia there wouldn't be a debate about arming the Ukrainian government.
A Ukrainian fighter jet shot down the plane.
You just wiped your arse with democracy.
Original post by saayagain
Got any proof? No. That's what I thought.
If the downing of the plane was anything to do with Russia there wouldn't be a debate about arming the Ukrainian government.
A Ukrainian fighter jet shot down the plane.
You just wiped your arse with democracy.
If the downing of the plane was anything to do with Russia there wouldn't be a debate about arming the Ukrainian government.
A Ukrainian fighter jet shot down the plane.
You just wiped your arse with democracy.
Would these be the Ukrainian fighter jets that cant reach the height of a jet liner, firing missiles that left the same wreckage patterns as a buk missile launcher?
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Original post by Aj12
Would these be the Ukrainian fighter jets that cant reach the height of a jet liner, firing missiles that left the same wreckage patterns as a buk missile launcher?
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It can reach the height of the jetliner. The height you are referring to is the recommended altitude. You can push it to a higher altitude.
The wreckage pattern? There are pictures of bullet holes which indicate a strafing attack from a fighter jet.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rCsgilNl80o ~ Enjoy. I expect your denial or denouncement of the video in 40 mins or so.
Why do you think noone is talking about it now eh???
I have little sympathy for the rebels. If they truly wanted to be independent then i would support them but they wish to join Russia and Russian expansion cannot be tolerated.
That's an incredibly weak attitude. What your telling Russia there is that you'll appease them everytime they take a chunk of other states.
Original post by Sweetpea000
Personally, I think the Ukraine should surrender as I believe the only thing which they will gain from carrying on with the war is more deaths.
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That's an incredibly weak attitude. What your telling Russia there is that you'll appease them everytime they take a chunk of other states.
Original post by saayagain
It can reach the height of the jetliner. The height you are referring to is the recommended altitude. You can push it to a higher altitude.
The wreckage pattern? There are pictures of bullet holes which indicate a strafing attack from a fighter jet.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rCsgilNl80o ~ Enjoy. I expect your denial or denouncement of the video in 40 mins or so.
Why do you think noone is talking about it now eh???
The wreckage pattern? There are pictures of bullet holes which indicate a strafing attack from a fighter jet.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rCsgilNl80o ~ Enjoy. I expect your denial or denouncement of the video in 40 mins or so.
Why do you think noone is talking about it now eh???
Yes because they are going to use a ground attack fighter to shoot down an airliner.... You'd think if they were going to go to the efforts of shooting down an airliner for whatever perverse reason, they'd use the air superiority fighters but no they wanted to make it more of a challenge?
Well it is RT so I don't really know what else you'd be expecting. Anyway I see your conspiracy driven channel and raise you the German Intelligence service, American intelligence.
The Satellite photos the Russians are throwing around are fakes. It's known that the separatists had in their possession Buks and they themselves bragged about shooting down a jet just before it came to light that MH17 had been taken out. The damage patterns on the aircraft itself match a ground to air missile. This nicely debunks the fighter theory.
(edited 9 years ago)
Original post by Aj12
Yes because they are going to use a ground attack fighter to shoot down an airliner.... You'd think if they were going to go to the efforts of shooting down an airliner for whatever perverse reason, they'd use the air superiority fighters but no they wanted to make it more of a challenge?
Well it is RT so I don't really know what else you'd be expecting. Anyway I see your conspiracy driven channel and raise you the German Intelligence service, American intelligence.
The Satellite photos the Russians are throwing around are fakes. It's known that the separatists had in their possession Buks and they themselves bragged about shooting down a jet just before it came to light that MH17 had been taken out. The damage patterns on the aircraft itself match a ground to air missile. This nicely debunks the fighter theory.
Well it is RT so I don't really know what else you'd be expecting. Anyway I see your conspiracy driven channel and raise you the German Intelligence service, American intelligence.
The Satellite photos the Russians are throwing around are fakes. It's known that the separatists had in their possession Buks and they themselves bragged about shooting down a jet just before it came to light that MH17 had been taken out. The damage patterns on the aircraft itself match a ground to air missile. This nicely debunks the fighter theory.
Who knows why? Ask the Ukrainian pilots. They were flying around to attack rebel held areas or for scouting missions. The pilot saw the plane and shot it. Maybe he thought it was Putin's presidential airliner. Maybe he thought it was a commercial airplane filled with Russian military personnel and equipment.
They didn't use better jets for air combat because they don't have them or the rebels do not have jets to fight so there is no need to use them.
This is the typical ploy used to avoid the truth. RT is propaganda because Fox News is propaganda. Indicative of a weak argument.
There were no missile trails in the sky. Because there was no missile fired.
If it was so obvious that the separatists did it, why aren't the international community coming down hard on them? Because there is no proof. It has been swept under the rug.
Original post by saayagain
Who knows why? Ask the Ukrainian pilots. They were flying around to attack rebel held areas or for scouting missions. The pilot saw the plane and shot it. Maybe he thought it was Putin's presidential airliner. Maybe he thought it was a commercial airplane filled with Russian military personnel and equipment.
They didn't use better jets for air combat because they don't have them or the rebels do not have jets to fight so there is no need to use them.
This is the typical ploy used to avoid the truth. RT is propaganda because Fox News is propaganda. Indicative of a weak argument.
There were no missile trails in the sky. Because there was no missile fired.
If it was so obvious that the separatists did it, why aren't the international community coming down hard on them? Because there is no proof. It has been swept under the rug.
They didn't use better jets for air combat because they don't have them or the rebels do not have jets to fight so there is no need to use them.
This is the typical ploy used to avoid the truth. RT is propaganda because Fox News is propaganda. Indicative of a weak argument.
There were no missile trails in the sky. Because there was no missile fired.
If it was so obvious that the separatists did it, why aren't the international community coming down hard on them? Because there is no proof. It has been swept under the rug.
Well done for completely ignoring the links explaining why your theory was trash.
Russia is under sanctions as are members of the separatists and the West is considering arming ukraine, what else are they meant to do?. The only member of the international community that could come down hard on then is russia. I'm sure you can see why that won't happen.
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Original post by Aj12
Well done for completely ignoring the links explaining why your theory was trash.
Russia is under sanctions as are members of the separatists and the West is considering arming ukraine, what else are they meant to do?. The only member of the international community that could come down hard on then is russia. I'm sure you can see why that won't happen.
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Russia is under sanctions as are members of the separatists and the West is considering arming ukraine, what else are they meant to do?. The only member of the international community that could come down hard on then is russia. I'm sure you can see why that won't happen.
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Not my theory mate. The theory of experts that have looked at the evidence. You didn't watch the video as I thought.
Russia is bad, America is good and that's all there is to know.
Original post by saayagain
Not my theory mate. The theory of experts that have looked at the evidence. You didn't watch the video as I thought.
Russia is bad, America is good and that's all there is to know.
Russia is bad, America is good and that's all there is to know.
Hardly but if your going to be peddling conspiracy theories based on faked evidence people are going to csll you on it.
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Original post by Aj12
Hardly but if your going to be peddling conspiracy theories based on faked evidence people are going to csll you on it.
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You haven't given me anything. Just words and hidden agendas.
Watch the youtube video then tell me what you do not believe. You just dismissed it as propaganda which means you're a shill.
I've looked at both sides of the argument and the Ukrainian jet fighter theory makes the most sense and has the most evidence accompanying it.
What does it mean if the rebels did it anyway? They shot it on purpose? No. That makes no sense. They shot it by accident. That's feasible. If they shot it by accident, what do you want to do? Kill them.
The same goes for the Ukrainian jet fighter theory. If they shot it down, is it on purpose? No. That makes no sense. They shot it by accident. That's feasible. If they shot it by accident, what do you want to do? Kill the Ukrainian army? No. You'll say its a grave mistake and defend them. If it's the rebels, kill them.
This is why it is a big deal. The EU & co want to use it as a stick to beat the eastern region with. That's all. That's why it's not in the mainstream media anymore.
Where is your proof? Where is your logical/reasonable chain of occurrences? Where? Nowhere...SHOW ME! You can't you sheep/zombie.
Original post by saayagain
You haven't given me anything. Just words and hidden agendas.
Watch the youtube video then tell me what you do not believe. You just dismissed it as propaganda which means you're a shill.
I've looked at both sides of the argument and the Ukrainian jet fighter theory makes the most sense and has the most evidence accompanying it.
What does it mean if the rebels did it anyway? They shot it on purpose? No. That makes no sense. They shot it by accident. That's feasible. If they shot it by accident, what do you want to do? Kill them.
The same goes for the Ukrainian jet fighter theory. If they shot it down, is it on purpose? No. That makes no sense. They shot it by accident. That's feasible. If they shot it by accident, what do you want to do? Kill the Ukrainian army? No. You'll say its a grave mistake and defend them. If it's the rebels, kill them.
This is why it is a big deal. The EU & co want to use it as a stick to beat the eastern region with. That's all. That's why it's not in the mainstream media anymore.
Where is your proof? Where is your logical/reasonable chain of occurrences? Where? Nowhere...SHOW ME! You can't you sheep/zombie.
Watch the youtube video then tell me what you do not believe. You just dismissed it as propaganda which means you're a shill.
I've looked at both sides of the argument and the Ukrainian jet fighter theory makes the most sense and has the most evidence accompanying it.
What does it mean if the rebels did it anyway? They shot it on purpose? No. That makes no sense. They shot it by accident. That's feasible. If they shot it by accident, what do you want to do? Kill them.
The same goes for the Ukrainian jet fighter theory. If they shot it down, is it on purpose? No. That makes no sense. They shot it by accident. That's feasible. If they shot it by accident, what do you want to do? Kill the Ukrainian army? No. You'll say its a grave mistake and defend them. If it's the rebels, kill them.
This is why it is a big deal. The EU & co want to use it as a stick to beat the eastern region with. That's all. That's why it's not in the mainstream media anymore.
Where is your proof? Where is your logical/reasonable chain of occurrences? Where? Nowhere...SHOW ME! You can't you sheep/zombie.
Read the last article I posted, it's not just words and it points out the massive logical inconsistencies in the Russian story. Anyway I think this discussion is done.
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