Are we forcing multiculturalism?
First of all I'd like to state that I'm not a politics or anthropology student or particularly well versed in that area generally. I won't be able to qoute any famous authors or argue in really technical terms. What I'm about to write is my own thinking and it might be completley wrong and controversial but I don't mean to hurt anyones feelings and it's quite possible that will someone will come along and completley pick apart what I wrote and change my opinion.
As someone with an immigrant background this is something that I'm really interested about. In essence I think we as humans are trying to introduce something that is far beyond our current social capabilities. I feel like concepts of multiculturalism and complete equality are not something we are able to force or learn in the form of for example quotas at university or the workplace. In my opinion equality and multiculturalism are by products of social evolution to the point where the need for borders and countries disappears and we're such a long way away from that. These concepts are only possible in a world where we have found a way to distribute resources equally and everyone has approximately similar standards of living because then the need for us to prioritise our own 'communities' over each other disappears. Until then I feel we're fooling ourselves into creating this forced image of a egalitarian society where tension will sooner or later boil over and burst our bubble.
As someone with an immigrant background this is something that I'm really interested about. In essence I think we as humans are trying to introduce something that is far beyond our current social capabilities. I feel like concepts of multiculturalism and complete equality are not something we are able to force or learn in the form of for example quotas at university or the workplace. In my opinion equality and multiculturalism are by products of social evolution to the point where the need for borders and countries disappears and we're such a long way away from that. These concepts are only possible in a world where we have found a way to distribute resources equally and everyone has approximately similar standards of living because then the need for us to prioritise our own 'communities' over each other disappears. Until then I feel we're fooling ourselves into creating this forced image of a egalitarian society where tension will sooner or later boil over and burst our bubble.
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So you're saying that racism is inherintly acceptable and that we shouldn't further our attempts to tackle it?
I hate racism so naturally I disagree.
I hate racism so naturally I disagree.
Original post by Thechillyone
As someone with an immigrant background this is something that I'm really interested about.
As someone with an immigrant background this is something that I'm really interested about.
I'm an immigrant too. We all are; as well all know, from what we learned in school, we've always been a nation of immigrants and there is no such thing as being "British".
The problem is this: the two big immigration debates focus on a binary question; which is better, assimilation or multiculturalism? Well, that's the wrong question. Assimilation policies are inevitably attacked as draconian and "oppressive" towards the immigrants, whilst multiculturalism is divisive and inevitably leaks from immigration with either kind of policy. The only way to deal with the decay of social capital in the country and loss of identity is to severely limit who can immigrate in the future.
I don't think people from immigrant backgrounds should be against this; there's no need to feel hypocritical about it- this is your home too, you need to consider the welfare of your children and give two fingers to the state who want to continue importing third worlders with negative social capital and no skills.
Multiculturalism is communism by the backdoor, by the way. This hatred of hierarchy is what prevents the state from enforcing our institutions properly, or encouraging assimilation. Imagine the UK is the home of one family (the Britbongs). A foreign power enters the house and you tell them to leave, that they are disturbing your way of life. They turn round and call you 'racist' for not wanting them to pillage your home. Wait a second- why should you accept that term when all you are doing is preserving your homeland from invasion for the sake of your people's next generation?
Multiculturalism is a disaster, which is unfortunately proven almost on a weekly basis. (See Copenhagen this week)
We need people to either to accept and live by our values and integrate into our culture, or they frankly need to get the **** out.
We need people to either to accept and live by our values and integrate into our culture, or they frankly need to get the **** out.
(edited 9 years ago)
Original post by Abdul-Karim
So you're saying that racism is inherintly acceptable and that we shouldn't further our attempts to tackle it?
I hate racism so naturally I disagree.
I hate racism so naturally I disagree.
No, I think we're tackling the problem the wrong way and we're way ahead of ourselves.
I'm not really a fan of it myself so calm down.
Original post by HigherMinion
I'm an immigrant too. We all are; as well all know, from what we learned in school, we've always been a nation of immigrants and there is no such thing as being "British".
The problem is this: the two big immigration debates focus on a binary question; which is better, assimilation or multiculturalism? Well, that's the wrong question. Assimilation policies are inevitably attacked as draconian and "oppressive" towards the immigrants, whilst multiculturalism is divisive and inevitably leaks from immigration with either kind of policy. The only way to deal with the decay of social capital in the country and loss of identity is to severely limit who can immigrate in the future.
I don't think people from immigrant backgrounds should be against this; there's no need to feel hypocritical about it- this is your home too, you need to consider the welfare of your children and give two fingers to the state who want to continue importing third worlders with negative social capital and no skills.
Multiculturalism is communism by the backdoor, by the way. This hatred of hierarchy is what prevents the state from enforcing our institutions properly, or encouraging assimilation. Imagine the UK is the home of one family (the Britbongs). A foreign power enters the house and you tell them to leave, that they are disturbing your way of life. They turn round and call you 'racist' for not wanting them to pillage your home. Wait a second- why should you accept that term when all you are doing is preserving your homeland from invasion for the sake of your people's next generation?
The problem is this: the two big immigration debates focus on a binary question; which is better, assimilation or multiculturalism? Well, that's the wrong question. Assimilation policies are inevitably attacked as draconian and "oppressive" towards the immigrants, whilst multiculturalism is divisive and inevitably leaks from immigration with either kind of policy. The only way to deal with the decay of social capital in the country and loss of identity is to severely limit who can immigrate in the future.
I don't think people from immigrant backgrounds should be against this; there's no need to feel hypocritical about it- this is your home too, you need to consider the welfare of your children and give two fingers to the state who want to continue importing third worlders with negative social capital and no skills.
Multiculturalism is communism by the backdoor, by the way. This hatred of hierarchy is what prevents the state from enforcing our institutions properly, or encouraging assimilation. Imagine the UK is the home of one family (the Britbongs). A foreign power enters the house and you tell them to leave, that they are disturbing your way of life. They turn round and call you 'racist' for not wanting them to pillage your home. Wait a second- why should you accept that term when all you are doing is preserving your homeland from invasion for the sake of your people's next generation?
I can't really gather much from this apart from that you want immigration curbed because you think assimilation and multiculturalism are not working? I think you're reasons are different to mine though. "Loss of social identity" is not something I find bad in actual fact I think when we've evolved beyond the need for a "social identity" that's when we truly can have a multicultural\egalitarian society.
"Multiculturalism is communism by the backdoor" no it definitely isn't actually. Would you care to explain that at all?
Original post by Farage is a hero
Multiculturalism is a disaster, which is unfortunately proven almost on a weekly basis. (See Copenhagen this week)
We need people to either to accept and live by our values and integrate into our culture, or they frankly need to get the **** out.
We need people to either to accept and live by our values and integrate into our culture, or they frankly need to get the **** out.
It's a disaster right now but I hope we eventually get it right. I just don't think we can do it quite yet.
I don't dislike the concept of multiculturalism I think it's great but I want it done properly and at the right time.
Original post by Abdul-Karim
So you're saying that racism is inherintly acceptable and that we shouldn't further our attempts to tackle it?
I hate racism so naturally I disagree.
I hate racism so naturally I disagree.
I don't think the OP is saying that at all.
I don't think this is a matter of race, it really is about culture and there only seems to be one culture making a nuisance of itself here as far as I can tell.
Original post by Thechillyone
I can't really gather much from this apart from that you want immigration curbed because you think assimilation and multiculturalism are not working? I think you're reasons are different to mine though. "Loss of social identity" is not something I find bad in actual fact I think when we've evolved beyond the need for a "social identity" that's when we truly can have a multicultural\egalitarian society.
"Multiculturalism is communism by the backdoor" no it definitely isn't actually. Would you care to explain that at all?
"Multiculturalism is communism by the backdoor" no it definitely isn't actually. Would you care to explain that at all?
It's just not possible to maintain a high social capital with our neighbours in a multiculti society. You've said it already, that it's not working now, you acknowledge that much: so why do you think it will ever work? Do you believe human nature is malleable?
Why do you believe multiculturalism "definitely isn't actually" communism by the backdoor?
The state expanded massively after WWII and even more rapidly once New Labour got in to power. There was suddenly a big debate about balancing the power between rich and poor, men and women, and the British and minorities. Since then, there has also been a fourth leg, of sexuality requiring "balance" in the public sector and "equal rights". Well, here's the thing: the government's aim is to make everyone indistinct and homogenous so they may become individual units of labour with no social interest in their neighbours or attachment to family. Trotsky had written about this, and the term "racist" was coined to demonise traditionalists for wanting to preserve their culture and people. There was more pushback here for the superstate vision, so what happened? Mass immigration was pushed to manipulate voting towards dependence and socialism.
But yes, do tell me how multiculturalism isn't communism by the backdoor. I'm keen to see how you sidestep logic. You do seem, however, interested in a communist state.
(edited 9 years ago)
Original post by Thechillyone
It's a disaster right now but I hope we eventually get it right. I just don't think we can do it quite yet.
I don't dislike the concept of multiculturalism I think it's great but I want it done properly and at the right time.
I don't dislike the concept of multiculturalism I think it's great but I want it done properly and at the right time.
It's failed everywhere else it's been tried.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-11559451
Why keep trying?
The British people have been subject to multicultural experiment against their will by the government.
It is all way and good people saying multiculturalism is bad but what do they want instead?
I am support a mono-culture within the British nation state. So everybody is a Protestant, everybody speaks English with a regional British accent and spends some time in the environment of the British Isles. I want this mono-culture to be enforced by the British government and state as it was with Penal laws.
I would happily accept the government going away and stopping all laws in terms discrimination and equality, which are aimed at weakening my power and the power of Protestant English speakers within the British nation state.
I am support a mono-culture within the British nation state. So everybody is a Protestant, everybody speaks English with a regional British accent and spends some time in the environment of the British Isles. I want this mono-culture to be enforced by the British government and state as it was with Penal laws.
I would happily accept the government going away and stopping all laws in terms discrimination and equality, which are aimed at weakening my power and the power of Protestant English speakers within the British nation state.
Original post by Raymat
The British people have been subject to multicultural experiment against their will by the government.
Within the British nation state people don't matter as much as institutions. It is the government forcing its will upon the Aristocracy, Monarchy, Courts, Media, Parliament and Church of England that is the problem. The British people don't matter.
Original post by SnoochToTheBooch
I don't think this is a matter of race, it really is about culture and there only seems to be one culture making a nuisance of itself here as far as I can tell.
It isn't about culture for cultures sake. It is really about legacy, protecting and maintain the legacy of our families and ancestors. Defending the British governmental system they created.
Original post by william walker
Within the British nation state people don't matter as much as institutions. It is the government forcing its will upon the Aristocracy, Monarchy, Courts, Media, Parliament and Church of England that is the problem. The British people don't matter.
Only a few, if any, politicians on this world really care about the masses.
Original post by Thechillyone
It's a disaster right now but I hope we eventually get it right. I just don't think we can do it quite yet.
I don't dislike the concept of multiculturalism I think it's great but I want it done properly and at the right time.
I don't dislike the concept of multiculturalism I think it's great but I want it done properly and at the right time.
Same old Liberal argument. It isn't working so it much have been the wrong time to do it, if we had just done it rights and spend more money it would have worked. Liberalism is a failure and never works. The only thing which every worked within Britain was Toryism.
Original post by Raymat
Only a few, if any, politicians on this world really care about the masses.
Why would you expect or even want them to care about the masses? This is the whole reason the government has to much power universal voting rights.
Original post by HigherMinion
It's just not possible to maintain a high social capital with our neighbours in a multiculti society. You've said it already, that it's not working now, you acknowledge that much: so why do you think it will ever work? Do you believe human nature is malleable?
Why do you believe multiculturalism "definitely isn't actually" communism by the backdoor?
The state expanded massively after WWII and even more rapidly once New Labour got in to power. There was suddenly a big debate about balancing the power between rich and poor, men and women, and the British and minorities. Since then, there has also been a fourth leg, of sexuality requiring "balance" in the public sector and "equal rights". Well, here's the thing: the government's aim is to make everyone indistinct and homogenous so they may become individual units of labour with no social interest in their neighbours or attachment to family. Trotsky had written about this, and the term "racist" was coined to demonise traditionalists for wanting to preserve their culture and people. There was more pushback here for the superstate vision, so what happened? Mass immigration was pushed to manipulate voting towards dependence and socialism.
But yes, do tell me how multiculturalism isn't communism by the backdoor. I'm keen to see how you sidestep logic. You do seem, however, interested in a communist state.
Why do you believe multiculturalism "definitely isn't actually" communism by the backdoor?
The state expanded massively after WWII and even more rapidly once New Labour got in to power. There was suddenly a big debate about balancing the power between rich and poor, men and women, and the British and minorities. Since then, there has also been a fourth leg, of sexuality requiring "balance" in the public sector and "equal rights". Well, here's the thing: the government's aim is to make everyone indistinct and homogenous so they may become individual units of labour with no social interest in their neighbours or attachment to family. Trotsky had written about this, and the term "racist" was coined to demonise traditionalists for wanting to preserve their culture and people. There was more pushback here for the superstate vision, so what happened? Mass immigration was pushed to manipulate voting towards dependence and socialism.
But yes, do tell me how multiculturalism isn't communism by the backdoor. I'm keen to see how you sidestep logic. You do seem, however, interested in a communist state.
Like I stated in my OP when the means have been found to distribute resources equally then we will lose the need to prioritize our own communities over others. It'll mean we will lose the nonsensical relations we create based on skin colour, nationality etc. and an common interest to 'fortify' our possessions. I do not think it is necessarily an issue of culture more an issue of economics and greed.
In the communist manifesto communism is not the result of enforced 'balancing' rather the result of a natural process, the result of a class struggle between the bourgeoise and the proletariat. Communism barely has anything to do with the concept of multiculturalism it's quite economical in the sense that it doesn't draw the division in terms of culture but in terms of social class.
Also, this homogenisation of the proletariat you're talking about is not the result of multiculturalism it is a result of an increasing 'machinisation' of labour which means that proletariat is becoming increasingly unified because they're only possession is their 'ability to work' instead of having a specific skill or trade. At least that is according to the communist manifesto.
I don't think it is the governments aim but rather a byproduct of capitalism. So if anything you should be complaining about capitalism.
Quoting Trotsky is nonsense The Soviet Union much like China today had very little trademarks of communism.
I'm not even a communist but it seems like whatever you say these days you are 'insulted' by being called a communist it's absolutely ridiculous.
(edited 9 years ago)
Original post by SnoochToTheBooch
I don't think this is a matter of race, it really is about culture and there only seems to be one culture making a nuisance of itself here as far as I can tell.
Who are you referring to? Whoever it is if it wasn't them it'd be someone else. It rarely has to do with the culture itself and more with circumstances surrounding it at a certain point in time.
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