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Original post by PinkMobilePhone
I've heard it said that "Jewish" is both a race and a religion, but to be honest that really only applies to Israel. Hence why, ethnically, people of Palestine are essentially the same race as people from Israel, but their religion differs so much that they call themselves a different race.

In other countries though, to be Jewish really means you follow Judaism. Nobody for example could possibly be a Jewish Christian (as someone a few posts above suggested) because it is a fundamental belief of Jews that the saviour has not yet arrived, whereas it is a fundamental belief of Christianity that Jesus was the saviour and he very much already arrived. You really cannot contradict two major religions like that with such an oxymoron.

I would suggest that the OP does a little more research before calling himself a Jewish Atheist. If he means he has some Israeli lineage, then okay, he has Israeli lineage, and comes from a Jewish family, but by choosing atheism he has renounced his religion and is therefore only Israeli by heritage, not Jewish.


Messianic Jews are Jews who believe in Jesus as the Lord saviour. I assure you that after over 15 years of Jewish schooling, Further Jewish education every Saturday, growing up enshrined in the culture and atmosphere, participating in and leading Jewish organisations and educational groups, studying Judaism at GCSE level and now A level, I have enough knowledge to know what I'm talking about, and don't need to do further research.
Reply 81
Original post by simbasdragon
Messianic Jews are Jews who believe in Jesus as the Lord saviour. I assure you that after over 15 years of Jewish schooling, Further Jewish education every Saturday, growing up enshrined in the culture and atmosphere, participating in and leading Jewish organisations and educational groups, studying Judaism at GCSE level and now A level, I have enough knowledge to know what I'm talking about, and don't need to do further research.

I don't think this thread is going quite the way you expected, eh OP? :s-smilie:
How do you feel about certain Jews supporting neo-Nazi's in Ukraine?

I mean it's pretty clear they're just using them against Russia, but even so isn't that wrong?


Do you agree that anti-Semitism is somewhat a reaction to bad things a small minority of very rich and powerful Jews do?
Original post by PinkMobilePhone
I've heard it said that "Jewish" is both a race and a religion, but to be honest that really only applies to Israel. Hence why, ethnically, people of Palestine are essentially the same race as people from Israel, but their religion differs so much that they call themselves a different race.

In other countries though, to be Jewish really means you follow Judaism. Nobody for example could possibly be a Jewish Christian (as someone a few posts above suggested) because it is a fundamental belief of Jews that the saviour has not yet arrived, whereas it is a fundamental belief of Christianity that Jesus was the saviour and he very much already arrived. You really cannot contradict two major religions like that with such an oxymoron.

I would suggest that the OP does a little more research before calling himself a Jewish Atheist. If he means he has some Israeli lineage, then okay, he has Israeli lineage, and comes from a Jewish family, but by choosing atheism he has renounced his religion and is therefore only Israeli by heritage, not Jewish.


This is just pure conjecture and poor anthropology. Why does Jewish ethnicity only relate to Israel? One can be ethnically Jewish and live in the diaspora. There are many different Jewish ethnic groups. Strictly speaking, one can actually be a Jewish Christian - if one understands matrilineality. One's Judaism isn't predicated on following Jewish ritual or belief in God, how many times.

'in other countries, to be Jewish really means you follow Judaism'? This is imprecise language. It reads like a tautology. In order to be Jewish, one must be Jewish. What do you mean by 'follow Judaism'?

Israel is a nation - a political construct. What has that got to do with being a member of Judaism? Zionism does not equal Judaism. Religion is greater than just the God issue - this is uncontroversial, some draw narrow definitions like yours - but then Judaism isn't a religion.
Original post by Mr. Smith
How do you feel about certain Jews supporting neo-Nazi's in Ukraine?

I mean it's pretty clear they're just using them against Russia, but even so isn't that wrong?


Do you agree that anti-Semitism is somewhat a reaction to bad things a small minority of very rich and powerful Jews do?


Why would Jews support neo-Nazi's? If so, where is your evidence? And the term neo-Nazi is bandied around a whole lot, some nations, in a propagandistic manner label their political opponents as neo-Nazis, but are in fact not. If you apply neo-Nazi to all political opposition like Russia does to Ukraine, the term loses its meaning.

No, anti-semitism is structural. Most instances are an attack on very ordinary, and non-rich and non-powerful Jews.
Reply 85
Would you say that people who are boycotting Israel and are supporters of BDS anti-semetic ?
Reply 86
Original post by yo radical one
If you talk to me in a rude way, this is the response you will receive

Honestly, at my school it was always the stupid ****ing chavs sitting at the back saying "I don't need to learn this cuz I'll never use it in my life". Now whenever I have seen them around, they are complete losers.


If you were a qualified dentist you would not have asked about taking A levels 2 weeks ago :dunce:



Well I'm currently a Maths student, at the same time, I'm not one of these neckbeard autists who claims that anything which is not STEM is useless




You started to be rude, although there were nothing wrong with my question .. so this is would be my response !!!


Lol .. i see that you follow my posts ! .. so, follow them carefully, know the whole story and if i am a dentist or not =/


Btw, i did not mean it is worthless to know about religions, but is is not a disaster if i do not know some informations, it's a personal choice to be not interested in religions, but for me, i recently became interested in religions and that's why i've asked .. also this is the reason of why i want to do A level & do a 2nd undergraduate degree in Philosophy and Theology!!
Original post by Mr. Smith
How do you feel about certain Jews supporting neo-Nazi's in Ukraine?

I mean it's pretty clear they're just using them against Russia, but even so isn't that wrong?

I was not aware that this was happening, and so I can not comment on issues which I know little about and have nothing to do with me. Do you mean individual people who happen to be Jewish are supporting them, or Jewish organisations and groups expressly and collectively backing them? If the former, I have no more opinion on it than I would of they were not Jews.

Do you agree that anti-Semitism is somewitha reaction to bad things a small minority of very rich and powerful Jews do?

No, the reasons for anti-Semitism are extremely complex and that assertion is overly simplistic. Anti-semitism has almost always been ingrained in every society since its conception. Every time there are problems society finds a group to target and blame the crisis on, that is usually the Jewish people. Also, even in times when Jews are unsuccessful and relatively poor,.they have still been targeted, it has little to nothing to do with actual success, more to do with propaganda.

the main reasons for anti-Semitism are thought to be:
1) the belief, perpetuated by the church until fairly recently, that the Jews committed decide by killing Christ, and in the middle ages people believed that Jews killed Christian children and used their blood to make matzah with.(all of the above are obviously not true.)

2) the perception that Jews control the world and media, influenced largely by the book produced called 'protocols of the elders of zion', which is extremely anti-semitic in.nature, and is still one of the highest selling books in the Arab world.

And numerous other reasons have been suggested which I will add later.
I would also add racial anti-Semitism which was popularised in the second half of the nineteenth century, with the rise of race science. A legacy of social Darwinism. There are a multitude of other reasons as well: for an overview you can read 'Roots of Hate' by William I. Brustein.
Original post by rhstar
Would you say that people who are boycotting Israel and are supporters of BDS anti-semetic ?


No, people can criticise a government's actions without it being anti-semitism. The problem arises where people use this dislike and anger against Israel, which is perfectly allowed, to target and discriminate against Jews worldwide by naturally conflating with Israel and jews being the same thing, when they are not. If people are genuinely just criticising Israel as a country, then that is entirely acceptable. It is instances when anti-Israel protests around the UK have people standing their with signs like 'kill the Jews' and 'hitler was right' that it becomes anti-semitism, and a depressing amount.of people can't understand that Judaism and zionism are not the same thing.

There are Jewish groups which are anti-Israel such as 'true torah jews against Israel, and 'anerican jews solidarity against Israel' which protest against Israel and it's right-wing overnment's actions. Haredi jews are also usually against Israel, and the neuterai karta- which is an extremely religious jewish sect,.are extremely anti-zionist even met with and.openly supported palestinian and Hamas leaders. So criticism of the Israeli right -wing government and the country is fine, conflating Israel with all jews around the world, and being violent because of that, is anti-semitic.
(edited 9 years ago)
Original post by generaljonny
I would also add racial anti-Semitism which was popularised in the second half of the nineteenth century, with the rise of race science. A legacy of social Darwinism. There are a multitude of other reasons as well: for an overview you can read 'Roots of Hate' by William I. Brustein.


More recently that has been another cause, yes. But anti-semitism has been around far longer than Darwin, or even basic science.
Original post by simbasdragon
More recently that has been another cause, yes. But anti-semitism has been around far longer than Darwin, or even basic science.


Of course. Racial anti-Semitism was a manifestation of the nineteenth century however.
Original post by generaljonny
Of course. Racial anti-Semitism was a manifestation of the nineteenth century however.


Amongst other things, yes.
Original post by simbasdragon
Exactly as the title suggests, just please don't be disrespectful or abusive.


What grades did you get for GCSE? What subjects are you studying at GCE A level and what are you predicted? Did you go to a private school?
Reply 94
Original post by simbasdragon
No, people can criticise a government's actions without it being anti-semitism. The problem arises where people use this dislike and anger against Israel, which is perfectly allowed, to target and discriminate against Jews worldwide by naturally conflating with Israel and jews being the same thing, when they are not. If people are genuinely just criticising Israel as a country, then that is entirely acceptable. It is instances when anti-Israel protests around the UK have people standing their with signs like 'kill the Jews' and 'hitler was right' that it becomes anti-semitism, and a depressing amount.of people can't understand that Judaism and zionism are not the same thing.

There are Jewish groups which are anti-Israel such as 'true torah jews against Israel, and 'anerican jews solidarity against Israel' which protest against Israel and it's right-wing overnment's actions. Haredi jews are also usually against Israel, and the neuterai karta- which is an extremely religious jewish sect,.are extremely anti-zionist even met with and.openly supported palestinian and Hamas leaders. So criticism of the Israeli right -wing government and the country is fine, conflating Israel with all jews around the world, and being violent because of that, is anti-semitic.


Thank you for your reply, and I agree those statements are disgusting.
Original post by Xin Xang
Yes but British come from Britain, Chinese come China, Indian comes from India, Jewish come from...?


The first thing to say is that obviously I was painting with a broad brush when talking about ethnicity. China has different ethnic groups (Han, Uigers, Tibetans...), just as India does. Even the small place like the UK has a basic ethnic break-up between English, Scottish, Welsh and Irish amongst its indigenous peoples.

Some people have said that Jews cannot be an ethnic group because you get ginger Jews in Scotland and black Jews from Ethiopia. I don't think that this distracts from the point that they are an ethnic group, but just indicates that they may be split into further sub groups. You have to remember that being Jewish comes from the maternal line, so at some point they all came from the same source - however diluted that may be. As far as conversion goes, I think they invent some scenario that you were always Jewish, but didn't know it - you soul was lost, flying around Mount Sinai.

So, to your question, where do Jews come from. Well, historically, that's clear, they came from lands bordering the south-eastern Mediterranean. What we today call Israel or Palestine, and which in the past has been part of the Ottoman Empire, or called the Holy Land. (I'm not expressing any opinion as to the legitimacy of the state of Israel, these are just the historical facts.)

Here's a interesting thought on that though, someone helpfully gave a definition of the term "anti-semitic", which my dictionary simply says:

hostility to or prejudice against Jews.


But, try looking up the word "semitic"

1 relating to or denoting a family of languages that includes Hebrew, Arabic, and Aramaic and certain ancient languages such as Phoenician and Akkadian, constituting the main subgroup of the Afro-Asiatic family.
2 of or relating to the peoples who speak these languages, esp. Hebrew and Arabic.


Which is quite a different understanding isn't it, and probably should give you a clue as to where Jews come from.

Whatever the answer to that question is, the fact is that today they are found all over the world, because they have spread, and that is the original meaning of the word "diaspora":

Jews living outside Israel.
the dispersion of the Jews beyond Israel.
the dispersion of any people from their original homeland : the diaspora of boat people from Asia.
the people so dispersed : the Ukrainian diaspora flocked back to Kiev.


So the Jews started to spread from Israel/Palestine at least from the 8/6th centuries BC.
Original post by Raymat
What grades did you get for GCSE? What subjects are you studying at GCE A level and what are you predicted? Did you go to a private school?


I got 4a*'s, 4 A's and 2 B's. At AS level I am doing english lit, history, RS and classical civilisation and I'm predicted 4 A's. I don't, nor have I ever been to private school.
iI think they invent some scenario that you were always Jewish, but didn't know it - you soul was lost, flying around Mount Sinai.



I entirely agree with everything else you said, and thankyou for explaining that more eloquently than I could have done. This thing about converts having always been jewish is something that I have never heard of nor come across before. They are viewed as seperate people who then convert to join Judaism, not people who 'revert' back to it. In regards to the ethnicity of them, the number of people who convert is so extremely small and insignificant, due to the fact that it is a 7 year long process and it follows a strict obligation to follow many laws and restrictions once converted. Thus, it is not really considered a large enough factor to determine or challenge anything as far as I am aware.
Just wanted to clear that up :smile:.
(edited 9 years ago)
Reply 98
Original post by simbasdragon
I presume you are trolling, but I'll humour you anyway. The belief that Israel is the natural homeland of Jews is a belief of Zionism, which is not the same thing as Judaism. My homeland is England, in the same way that Afghanistan is a Muslim state, but an English Muslim might see England as their homeland.

How could you claim to have no idea that I was a Jew when in my title i state that 'I am a Jewish Atheist?'


Zionism and unrevised Judaism are one and the same
Original post by Borgia
Zionism and unrevised Judaism are one and the same


Incorrect, Judaism is religious, zionism is political. The only crossover whatsoever could be that in the Torah god promises that the Jews will have their own land. However the Jews sinned against god and so we're kicked out and told that they were not allowed to return until the Messiah came, and.jews believe that the Messiah hasn't come yet. Therefore Judaism actually is the.opposite of zionism. Jews were promised the holy Land thousands of years ago. Yet, when we sinned, He took it away and sent us into exile. Since that time our task is to wait for Him to send the Messiah. At that time, the Creator alone, without any human being lifting a hand or saying a word, will bring us together and take us out of exile. He will likewise establish universal peace among all mankind and all will serve Him in good will.

Some religious Jews, confused by Zionist propaganda quote Biblical verses that state that G-d gave the children of Israel the Holy Land. They overlook, unfortunately, those verses which say that He took it away due to our sins. They further ignore those prophecies which explicitly describe the last exile's conclusion as a Divine, not a human process

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