ISIS fighters destroy artifacts in museum rampage

Original post by Zachary T-H

I was aware that we have no legal responsibility to return the marbles under international law (having read around the subject)- I tried to hint this to the Greek chap but didn't want to go into legal detail as I'm not educated in the law and don't wish to make legal faux pas. Thanks for the support, It helps having someone with legal knowledge coming to my aid. you must study law right?

No worries :smile:

Yes, I'm a law student.

As I pointed out to Stefan, we really only have the law to look to in these situations. There are plenty of things that might not be entirely moral but are nonetheless legal (like sleeping with another man's wife or boyfriend)

I can't see that there's really any basis to demand their return. They can ask nicely, but there's certainly no obligation

Reply 62

Original post by LordMarmalade

No worries :smile:

Oh awesome, where do you go? I'm going to start a history degree next year and may follow up with a law conversion but don't know where to go for it. Yes, my problem is that they don't ask nicely :tongue:

Reply 63

Original post by Zachary T-H

I'm at BPP Law School.

Very cool that you're studying history :smile:

I'm a mad history buff, and if you enjoy history and dig the English language, you'll love law

Reply 64

Original post by Zachary T-H

I'm well aware of that fact my friend. perhaps I wasn't clear. Greece was invaded by the Romans in 150Ad (is0h, the Roman empire split and the eastern Roman empire lived on (Byzantine empire)- which was succeed by the ottoman empire. Greece wasn't independent until 1821. 150AD-1821 is over a 1000 years. I personally wouldn't class the Greeks as independent under the Byzantine empire as it was an continuation of the Roman empire.

The Greeks were not considered "enslaved" under the Byzantine Empire. The two had become almost identical, with regards to the language, religion and the arts. Hence why you'll see historians calling the Byzantine Empire the Christianised Romans of the Greek nation (the term "roman" had become synonymous with "Greek Christians" at that time).

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Reply 65

Original post by LordMarmalade

Need I repeat myself? Please pay closer attention.

Regardless, I'm ending this here. The worldwide support for their return is all that's needed right now. Two-three people arguing is pointless. Next time though, try being nicer when discussing national issues. At least have some respect for the country that marked the beginning of western civilization.

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(edited 9 years ago)

Reply 66

Original post by *Stefan*

Need I repeat myself? Please pay closer attention.

You're losing your temper unnecessarily. You claimed they were stolen. Theft has a very specific meaning, one which a sale conducted under the lawful authority of the ruling power does not cover.

Reply 67

Original post by *Stefan*

Are you actually serious that the Acropolis deserved to be plundered? That only shows that you do not respect the pinnacle of human sophistication, which is very sad. And Greece offered a lot more to the world than it took -don't forget that. The saying that everyone would still be hanging on the trees had the Greeks not existed exists for a reason.

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I'm going to answer your points in chunks. I didn't say it deserved to be plundered, however it is arguable that the removal of the marbles has preserved them better than leaving them on the Parthenon with the others. My comment about plundering was meant to be Ironic- I study classics as an A-level and the honorable way to gain riches was through plunder so its slightly Ironic that the wealth was plundered right back :tongue:

Reply 68

Original post by *Stefan*

At least have some respect for the country that marked the beginning of western civilization.

This has nothing to do with respect for the Greeks; I adore classical culture. In any case, the modern Greeks are not really the same people as the ancient Greeks.

Reply 69

Original post by LordMarmalade

You're losing your temper unnecessarily. You claimed they were stolen. Theft has a very specific meaning, one which a sale conducted under the lawful authority of the ruling power does not cover.

I am not. Honestly. I know my position and am certainly not surprised with Britons taking this stance. It's natural to defend your country.

You're also perplexing the situation with the legal terms. I did not colour the word in the same way you seem to do. I wouldn't even know that yet.

The fact that there is national outrage is enough to prove that the marbles were not taken with the support of the Greek, whose legacy they are after all.

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(edited 9 years ago)

Reply 70

Original post by *Stefan*

By the way, you can't accuse us of plundering when the whole of the British Empire was built on that principle. It's hypocritical. You had basically enslaved Africa and abused their natural resources like they were yours! And, unlike Classical Greece, you gave nothing in return.

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As before, it was a joke. You do know that the acropolis as you know it was built with money that Pericles stole from the Delian league right? I fully accept the plundering or Britain, it is the nature of war- that is not hypocritical, just an observation. I think you'll find that you got some rather significant technological advancements have come from Britian, these were enabled by our power and wealth as an empire. for one thing, the industrial revolution stemmed from Britain.

Reply 71

Original post by *Stefan*

Have you seen something magnificent though? Because I've never seen a truly significant piece of antiquity from Britain!

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stone henge? any of the major palaces/ stately homes. The crown jewels? take your pick, there are plenty.

Reply 72

Original post by Zachary T-H

The Delian league was Greek as well! It's just that it didn't, at first, fall at the immediate authority of Athens.

Well, that's what I'm trying to say. Just like we got the significant technological improvements, in the same way the whole world benefited from our philosophy, from out language and of course from the history.

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Reply 73

Original post by Zachary T-H

stone henge? any of the major palaces/ stately homes. The crown jewels? take your pick, there are plenty.

I meant in another country, since you said you love seeing British artifacts in other countries.

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(edited 9 years ago)

Reply 74

Original post by LordMarmalade

This has nothing to do with respect for the Greeks; I adore classical culture. In any case, the modern Greeks are not really the same people as the ancient Greeks.

Well, I agree. But that is not relevant. We were talking about what is rightfully, in my opinion at least, ours.

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Reply 75

Original post by *Stefan*

The sum Germany owes has been measured at around $180bn! Not $14bn. It basically covers the entirety of the debt. By the way, Britain owns a lot as well. Perhaps not to Greece, but it owns enormous amounts of money. I don't see you mentioning any of that though.

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Ah, the war debt. The interesting issue.

Britain's debt is bigger but a lesser proportion of GDP- we can afford it and are willing to pay it where as Greece don't want to pay theirs.

its not most of it, it's just over half (using your figures which are wrong).

The correct figure is $14 billion, the debt owed was part of a 0% loan to the Nazi's (accoriding to Tspiras), $14 billion is the amount of money they "didn't" pay back adjusted to inflation, the figure Tspiras uses are supposedly calculated including interest which breaches the terms of an interest free loan- at most they owe $14billion. If Tspiras is claiming that the money he want's isn't for the loan and is for war damages then the claim is invalid as it would be null and void due to "the agreement on German external debts".

Reply 76

Original post by *Stefan*

I meant in another country, since you said you love seeing British artifacts in other countries.

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There is a lot of British art abroad- arguably the Parthenon sculptures are art. you also have the spectacular buildings dotted around the world that we built.

Reply 77

Original post by *Stefan*

I know the Delian Leauge was Greek, the finances were intended to be used to help the Greek citys states repel the Persians, Pericles moved the Delian league to Athens, used the funds to re build the Acropolis and city and then extorted money from other states to keep up his projects. You can't knock the Greek contribution to society but as time passes you have progress, for example Ancient Greece gave us democracy but democracy has developed from then to the modern day where it is actually fair. Similarly with Philosophy- philosophy has developed with inspiration from Greece. We can't really argue about the significance of the contributions to the modern day as they are not in the same relative time periods- Both have made significant contributions though. (I do love ancient Greece- I'm not quite sure how we got this far from the central issue)

(edited 9 years ago)

Reply 78

Original post by LordMarmalade

I'm at BPP Law School.

Very cool that you're studying history :smile:

I'm a mad history buff, and if you enjoy history and dig the English language, you'll love law

English is okay, I don't do it as an A level though! (Classics, History,Philosophy and biology). Is BPP good/ do they do the law conversions?

Reply 79