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Stop TSR Islamophobia masked as "debate"
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Original post by Viva Emptiness
It's the debate section. If people post comments others don't agree with then I can't think of a better time of place than in a debate forum. If religious people want a "safe space" to chat with other like-minded people then I'd suggest another sub-forum that is NOT for debate.
I completely agree
Original post by Reluire
Hi - thanks for creating a thread in Help & Feedback.
I would agree that the Religion forum has become a toxic environment for Muslims, and this is something I would like to see change. People can hide under the guise of free speech as much as they like, but this is The Student Room, a private organisation, and we aren't obliged to permit limitless free speech. If we deem it offensive, we have every right to remove it.
The issue comes from trying to draw the line between the debate and criticism of religion and the outright offensive attack of religion, showing blatant disrepsect to the most sacred of religous beliefs. I am an advocate of free discussion and debate, but I am not an advocate of insulting, mocking and humiliating those who follow a particular faith which has become commonplace in the Religion forum admittedly. It's simply unreasonable to equate all Muslims with extremists as so many people do.
Rest assured that Islamaphobia is something I and the rest of the mod team take very seriously, and it's something we're working hard to address more effectively.
Reluire.
I would agree that the Religion forum has become a toxic environment for Muslims, and this is something I would like to see change. People can hide under the guise of free speech as much as they like, but this is The Student Room, a private organisation, and we aren't obliged to permit limitless free speech. If we deem it offensive, we have every right to remove it.
The issue comes from trying to draw the line between the debate and criticism of religion and the outright offensive attack of religion, showing blatant disrepsect to the most sacred of religous beliefs. I am an advocate of free discussion and debate, but I am not an advocate of insulting, mocking and humiliating those who follow a particular faith which has become commonplace in the Religion forum admittedly. It's simply unreasonable to equate all Muslims with extremists as so many people do.
Rest assured that Islamaphobia is something I and the rest of the mod team take very seriously, and it's something we're working hard to address more effectively.
Reluire.
The ex-Muslim society being censored for criticising/ridiculing Islam is one of the biggest examples of ludicrous moderation to appease Muslims, and if anything it needs to be toned down.
There are posts endlessly in the ISOC mocking disbelievers and mentioning the punishments for them too. Verses in the Islamic scripture itself mock and deride people of faiths not belonging to Islam. Seems like double standards...
What is your definition of 'Islamophobia', btw?
(edited 9 years ago)
Original post by ShotsFired-9941
Speaking of debate, can you distinguish a derogatory post with a substantive post?
Absolutely, and any posts that are solely intended to offend or insult a person on this forum should be dealt with according to normal moderation standards. What shouldn't be removed is comments that offend ideas, ideologies, or long-dead men.
Original post by Reluire
Voltaire comes to mind.
We don't have to like or agree with something in order to protect it.
We don't have to like or agree with something in order to protect it.
I absolutely do not want to limit the freedom of the religious to believe and advocate their ideas. By "protect", I mean trying to protect those ideas from criticism or "offensive" attacks. You talk about "the outright offensive attack of religion, showing blatant disrepsect to the most sacred of religous beliefs" but these ideas are no different to deeply-held political beliefs. Yet we don't see the protection of political ideas from "blatant disrespect". And rightly so.
Again, there should be an acknowledgement of the difference in attacking people and attacking ideas. Like the popular meme goes, people have rights, ideas don't. By all means, please do protect Muslims from being personally harassed or from prejudice but there is no rationality in protecting any religious beliefs or their associated historical (or mythical) figures from perceived "offensiveness".
Original post by h3isenberg
The ex-Muslim society being censored for criticising/ridiculing Islam is one of the biggest examples of ludicrous moderation to appease Muslims, and if anything it needs to be toned down.
There are posts endlessly in the ISOC mocking disbelievers and mentioning the punishments for them too. Verses in the Islamic scripture itself mock and deride people of faiths not belonging to Islam. Seems like double standards...
What is your definition of 'Islamophobia', btw?
There are posts endlessly in the ISOC mocking disbelievers and mentioning the punishments for them too. Verses in the Islamic scripture itself mock and deride people of faiths not belonging to Islam. Seems like double standards...
What is your definition of 'Islamophobia', btw?
I can't comment much on specific Religion forum threads as I don't mod in there much. One of the other D&CA mods would be better placed to respond to comments about the Ex-Muslims thread.
No, it's not acceptable. It's a two way street; neither side is given privilege above the other, but both should be respectful to each other. Insulting, mocking etc. is not debating or discussing, despite what some might think.
I see Islamaphobia as hate speech towards Muslims and/or comments made deliberately to upset or inflame them.
(edited 9 years ago)
Original post by Reluire
I can't much on specific Religion forum threads as I don't mod in there much. One of the other D&CA mods would be better placed to respond to comments about the Ex-Muslims thread.
No, it's not acceptable. It's a two way street; neither side is given privilege above the other, but both should be respectful to each other. Insulting, mocking etc. is not debating or discussing, despite what some might think.
I see Islamaphobia as hate speech towards Muslims and/or comments made deliberately to upset or inflame them.
No, it's not acceptable. It's a two way street; neither side is given privilege above the other, but both should be respectful to each other. Insulting, mocking etc. is not debating or discussing, despite what some might think.
I see Islamaphobia as hate speech towards Muslims and/or comments made deliberately to upset or inflame them.
It's funny because the exact opposite has happened a lot in the ex-mus thread before and nothing was done about it. Not to mention suddenly no debating tags being stuck on any threads to do with islam all of a sudden?
All this one way censorship is getting quite ridiculous.
(edited 9 years ago)
Why is it bullying to criticise an ideology, especially one that believes people should be damned for criticising its tenets?
Original post by Reluire
Hi - thanks for creating a thread in Help & Feedback.
I would agree that the Religion forum has become a toxic environment for Muslims, and this is something I would like to see change. People can hide under the guise of free speech as much as they like, but this is The Student Room, a private organisation, and we aren't obliged to permit limitless free speech. If we deem it offensive, we have every right to remove it.
The issue comes from trying to draw the line between the debate and criticism of religion and the outright offensive attack of religion, showing blatant disrepsect to the most sacred of religous beliefs. I am an advocate of free discussion and debate, but I am not an advocate of insulting, mocking and humiliating those who follow a particular faith which has become commonplace in the Religion forum admittedly. It's simply unreasonable to equate all Muslims with extremists as so many people do.
Rest assured that Islamaphobia is something I and the rest of the mod team take very seriously, and it's something we're working hard to address more effectively.
Reluire.
I would agree that the Religion forum has become a toxic environment for Muslims, and this is something I would like to see change. People can hide under the guise of free speech as much as they like, but this is The Student Room, a private organisation, and we aren't obliged to permit limitless free speech. If we deem it offensive, we have every right to remove it.
The issue comes from trying to draw the line between the debate and criticism of religion and the outright offensive attack of religion, showing blatant disrepsect to the most sacred of religous beliefs. I am an advocate of free discussion and debate, but I am not an advocate of insulting, mocking and humiliating those who follow a particular faith which has become commonplace in the Religion forum admittedly. It's simply unreasonable to equate all Muslims with extremists as so many people do.
Rest assured that Islamaphobia is something I and the rest of the mod team take very seriously, and it's something we're working hard to address more effectively.
Reluire.
If you want us to respect a sexist, homophobic, intolerant, oppressive, apostate-killing, adulterer-stoning, paedophile-idolising ideology like Islam then that is a sad indictment of this website.
How you can adopt such a holier-than-thou attitude, when you say you're dedicating yourself to protecting the most despicable of ideologies from criticism, is beyond me.
Original post by Reluire
Voltaire comes to mind.
We don't have to like or agree with something in order to protect it.
We don't have to like or agree with something in order to protect it.
You are against those who would deign to criticise, and yes, mock, an ideology, but you are happy for those who follow that ideology to tell us that we are going to burn in hell for disagreeing with them? I find that deeply offensive, yet no mods on those threads telling them to play nice and not threaten others with hell fire.
Original post by tengentoppa
If you want us to respect a sexist, homophobic, intolerant, oppressive, apostate-killing, adulterer-stoning, paedophile-idolising ideology like Islam then that is a sad indictment of this website.
How you can adopt such a holier-than-thou attitude, when you say you're dedicating yourself to protecting the most despicable of ideologies from criticism, is beyond me.
How you can adopt such a holier-than-thou attitude, when you say you're dedicating yourself to protecting the most despicable of ideologies from criticism, is beyond me.
Would +rep, unfortunately I can't do so at the moment.
Now it's turned into an opportunity to give the mods stick for what they can or can't do. As well as debating & flaming Islam instead of addressing the original point of the OP. Good job, TSR.
Original post by Reluire
I can't comment much on specific Religion forum threads as I don't mod in there much. One of the other D&CA mods would be better placed to respond to comments about the Ex-Muslims thread.
No, it's not acceptable. It's a two way street; neither side is given privilege above the other, but both should be respectful to each other. Insulting, mocking etc. is not debating or discussing, despite what some might think.
I see Islamaphobia as hate speech towards Muslims and/or comments made deliberately to upset or inflame them.
No, it's not acceptable. It's a two way street; neither side is given privilege above the other, but both should be respectful to each other. Insulting, mocking etc. is not debating or discussing, despite what some might think.
I see Islamaphobia as hate speech towards Muslims and/or comments made deliberately to upset or inflame them.
H3isenberg is absolutely right, there are some serious double standards which need to be dealt with. I live in constant fear (OK, an exaggeration, but you get the gist
) that the slightest comment I post on the Ex-Mus SOC criticising Islam will be carded or warned whilst videos and quotes in the ISOC talking about non-muslims burning in hell and being the worst of creatures run rampant.
im a muslim by name and I disagree with you
“To criticize a person for their race is manifestly irrational and ridiculous, but to criticize their religion, that is a right. That is a freedom. The freedom to criticize ideas, any ideas - even if they are sincerely held beliefs - is one of the fundamental freedoms of society. A law which attempts to say you can criticize and ridicule ideas as long as they are not religious ideas is a very peculiar law indeed.
It all points to the promotion of the idea that there should be a right not to be offended. But in my view the right to offend is far more important than any right not to be offended. The right to ridicule is far more important to society than any right not to be ridiculed because one in my view represents openness - and the other represents oppression”
-
“To criticize a person for their race is manifestly irrational and ridiculous, but to criticize their religion, that is a right. That is a freedom. The freedom to criticize ideas, any ideas - even if they are sincerely held beliefs - is one of the fundamental freedoms of society. A law which attempts to say you can criticize and ridicule ideas as long as they are not religious ideas is a very peculiar law indeed.
It all points to the promotion of the idea that there should be a right not to be offended. But in my view the right to offend is far more important than any right not to be offended. The right to ridicule is far more important to society than any right not to be ridiculed because one in my view represents openness - and the other represents oppression”
-
Original post by FlowaPowa
im a muslim by name and I disagree with you
“To criticize a person for their race is manifestly irrational and ridiculous, but to criticize their religion, that is a right. That is a freedom. The freedom to criticize ideas, any ideas - even if they are sincerely held beliefs - is one of the fundamental freedoms of society. A law which attempts to say you can criticize and ridicule ideas as long as they are not religious ideas is a very peculiar law indeed.
It all points to the promotion of the idea that there should be a right not to be offended. But in my view the right to offend is far more important than any right not to be offended. The right to ridicule is far more important to society than any right not to be ridiculed because one in my view represents openness - and the other represents oppression”
-
“To criticize a person for their race is manifestly irrational and ridiculous, but to criticize their religion, that is a right. That is a freedom. The freedom to criticize ideas, any ideas - even if they are sincerely held beliefs - is one of the fundamental freedoms of society. A law which attempts to say you can criticize and ridicule ideas as long as they are not religious ideas is a very peculiar law indeed.
It all points to the promotion of the idea that there should be a right not to be offended. But in my view the right to offend is far more important than any right not to be offended. The right to ridicule is far more important to society than any right not to be ridiculed because one in my view represents openness - and the other represents oppression”
-
Basically what you are trying to say is that it is ok to be anti-Islam but it's not ok to be anti-Muslim. If Muslims have a problem with anti-Islam in threads they either put up with it, avoid the threads or avoid using the forum.
I never used to see it, but I do think now that this site does have an issue, and the environment has become very hostile for Muslims. I can imagine that for many they feel they are being attacked constantly. But as they say, there are other forums. Or perhaps there needs to be a religion forum where people are free to discuss there religion without intense debate. That way it's harder to justify random off-topic attack/critisim on Islam
Original post by hussamhussam
There was a thread in Religion that asked non-Muslims what they think is inspiring about Islam and that alone caused the place to go crazy because apparently sticking to the topic and being positive about Islam for once is just too much for Islamophobes to handle that they must ruin it.
Do you not see how toxic that place has become? It inspires hate against Muslims every passing second and it goes against the anti-bullying ethics of TSR.
Like most forums on the web, TSR should seriously consider making rules against attacking religion and stick to what matters... academic and student discussion. Otherwise Muslim students (who make up such a large percentage by the way) will be dissuaded from even stepping foot in this site that seems to be run by Islamophobic atheist members who are making it more and more hateful with their "debates".
Do you not see how toxic that place has become? It inspires hate against Muslims every passing second and it goes against the anti-bullying ethics of TSR.
Like most forums on the web, TSR should seriously consider making rules against attacking religion and stick to what matters... academic and student discussion. Otherwise Muslim students (who make up such a large percentage by the way) will be dissuaded from even stepping foot in this site that seems to be run by Islamophobic atheist members who are making it more and more hateful with their "debates".
No.
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean you can have others silenced. They have every right to question, criticise and attack Islam. No Muslims are obliged to reply to those threads, but if they do, everyone has every right to ask them questions or challenge their beliefs. 'What matters' to many people includes religious and philosophical debate.
Islam is not entitled to special treatment, nor is any other religion. Especially not at the expense of the right to freedom of opinion and speech. Many people here dislike Islam, that is their entitlement and they are entitled to voice their criticisms and disparagement so long as they do not incite people to discriminatory crime or make personal attacks as a result.
If you can't cope with the fact that some people do not respect your religion, that's your problem. Your religion is not automatically deserving of everybody's respect, nor is your belief in it; though if you do not wish to have the latter questioned, then simply decline to take part in such a discussion.
Original post by Reluire
This definitely isn't about restricting criticism, it's about restricting the insulting, mocking and intentionally offensive attack on religion and it's followers.
This happens rarely, and is a separate moderation issue already covered by the existing rules. OP is complaining about threads critical of Islam in general and labelling them 'Islamophobic' to try and get a knee-jerk PC reaction because it's so offensive
. And that's not good enough.Also, your misappropriation of Voltaire is DISGUSTING. You're using the philosophy of a man and the usual quotation which stood up for every individual's right to say what they please regardless of whether others dislike it to try and justify moderating what people say because others dislike it. Islam is not something that needs anybody's protection, the essence of Voltaire is that anyone who wishes to defend it can come and do so with the same right to free speech as those who criticise it.
Sickening.
Original post by Plantagenet Crown
H3isenberg is absolutely right, there are some serious double standards which need to be dealt with. I live in constant fear (OK, an exaggeration, but you get the gist ) that the slightest comment I post on the Ex-Mus SOC criticising Islam will be carded or warned whilst videos and quotes in the ISOC talking about non-muslims burning in hell and being the worst of creatures run rampant.
) that the slightest comment I post on the Ex-Mus SOC criticising Islam will be carded or warned whilst videos and quotes in the ISOC talking about non-muslims burning in hell and being the worst of creatures run rampant.Don't even get me started on how it's perfectly ok to post a direct attack on individuals based on their skin colour, so long as it's the correct skin colour to complain about:
http://www.thestudentroom.co.uk/showthread.php?t=3210381
(edited 9 years ago)
Original post by TheBBQ
It's funny because the exact opposite has happened a lot in the ex-mus thread before and nothing was done about it. Not to mention suddenly no debating tags being stuck on any threads to do with islam all of a sudden?
All this one way censorship is getting quite ridiculous.
All this one way censorship is getting quite ridiculous.
Again, I can't comment on this thread as I do minimal modding in the Religion forum. Most of it is left to the Religion forum specialists like Ash and getfunky.
I don't think this is an issue with censorship because no one is saying you can't criticise Islam - they're just saying you don't need to be cruel or nasty about it. As far as the one way street argument goes, I am sorry you feel this way and this is something else I would like to assure you is being taken seriously. There shouldn't be any preferential treatment, and if I can help it, there won't be.
Original post by tengentoppa
If you want us to respect a sexist, homophobic, intolerant, oppressive, apostate-killing, adulterer-stoning, paedophile-idolising ideology like Islam then that is a sad indictment of this website.
How you can adopt such a holier-than-thou attitude, when you say you're dedicating yourself to protecting the most despicable of ideologies from criticism, is beyond me.
How you can adopt such a holier-than-thou attitude, when you say you're dedicating yourself to protecting the most despicable of ideologies from criticism, is beyond me.
You've used some extreme terms there which are very questionable. The way you present them suggests you believe all Muslims fit the criteria you've listed which, I would say, is a crude overgeneralisation.
I'm sorry you think I've taken that attitude. I think what you have to realise is that, as mods, we're netrual arbiters essentially. It doesn't matter what our personal opinion on something is - we just have to be level headed enough to see it from both sides. Just as we don't accept cruel and vicious comments about Muslims, we equally don't want to allow Muslims or members of other religions to make cruel and vicious comments about atheists. It's a two way street as I've mentioned before, and I know I certainly don't give Muslims or anyone of faith special treatment over atheists, or vice versa.
Original post by porn induced coma
You are against those who would deign to criticise, and yes, mock, an ideology, but you are happy for those who follow that ideology to tell us that we are going to burn in hell for disagreeing with them? I find that deeply offensive, yet no mods on those threads telling them to play nice and not threaten others with hell fire.
No I'm not happy for them to be saying that at all and I have used the report button to bring this to the attention of mods who can do something about it. I'm not a mod in this forum so I can't do anything.
Original post by Plantagenet Crown
H3isenberg is absolutely right, there are some serious double standards which need to be dealt with. I live in constant fear (OK, an exaggeration, but you get the gist ) that the slightest comment I post on the Ex-Mus SOC criticising Islam will be carded or warned whilst videos and quotes in the ISOC talking about non-muslims burning in hell and being the worst of creatures run rampant.
) that the slightest comment I post on the Ex-Mus SOC criticising Islam will be carded or warned whilst videos and quotes in the ISOC talking about non-muslims burning in hell and being the worst of creatures run rampant.Again, I can't comment much on the ISOC or Ex-Muslim Soc because I don't mod much at all in Religion, but I would like to put to rest any idea that Muslims or people of faith get preferential treatment. They don't. The mod team is incredibly diverse, with a mix of both religious and non-religious people - so we really don't have an agenda to protect one side more than the other. As happy clappy as it sounds, we really just want to make the site accessible and enjoyable for all.
Some are just militant atheists who don't like all religion and mainly critique Muslims because there is more negativity around them and for demanding things based on their religion more then others, but Muslims should be held accountable for their views and what they say
(edited 9 years ago)
Original post by Reluire
You've used some extreme terms there which are very questionable. The way you present them suggests you believe all Muslims fit the criteria you've listed which, I would say, is a crude overgeneralisation.
There is substantial evidence for things like sexism (and indeed misogyny), homophobia, child-marriage, apostate punishments, stoning etc in Islamic texts that tengentoppa is referring to but that doesn't mean that all or even most Muslims adopt or interpret them the same. I don't think tengentoppa even suggested that all Muslims follow this. But that doesn't take away from his point of what is actually in those texts and why Islam is such a debatable and vexing belief system and why for many it doesn't deserve the respect some people demand for it.
Original post by Reluire
Voltaire comes to mind. We don't have to like or agree with something in order to protect it.
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