IB Mathematics - HL vs Further

I'm entering the full Diploma Programme next year and planning to take Mathematics HL, History HL, English HL, and Chemistry HL.
However, my maths teacher is trying to sell me on Further Mathematics, which is now only available as an Higher Level class.
Would this count towards my cap of 4 Higher Level classes or would it be rolled into Mathematics HL like my teacher told me?

Reply 1

azulu

Further mathematics is sort of an extension of HL maths. You can only take it if you've already picked HL maths and it's basically just all the options from regular maths HL, instead of one option.
Personally, I don't recommend taking 4 HLs (or even 5, which isn't even possible). Admission offices don't care if you take more than 3 HLs, but it'll definitely impact your grades. It depends what kind of course you want to study, because further maths is a subject for really maths oriented courses, but as far as I'm concerned, no universities demand you to take it. Even if you want to study maths or maths with chemistry, for example, you'll be just fine with good grades in maths and chemistry HL.
So, answering your question, further maths is an additional subject from group 5, which you can take as a replacement of a group 7 subject - arts.

Reply 2

halldor

Thanks - I would ideally want to read Economics, but this is complicated by the fact that my college doesn't offer IB Economics and requires me to take either IB Bio HL or IB Chem HL. I would take Further Mathematics as a replacement for a group 7 subject, but it's gone from being SL-only to HL-only, which complicates things.

Reply 3

azulu

Yes, Further Maths is always HL, as it is the extension of Maths HL. Do you have any plans for what you might want to study in the future?

Reply 4

halldor

As I said, I'd like to read Economics at university, ideally.

Reply 5

nicholasflamel

Yes I think the Further Maths HL would count as your 5th HL, which isn't allowed by the IB. Just because Further Maths HL is an extension of Maths HL, doesn't mean that they both count as 1 HL subject.

Perhaps you should drop English HL or Chemistry HL, since they have the least relevance to what you want to read in uni?

PS. Just as a slight correction, there are no "Group 7 subjects" haha. Art belongs to Group 6.

Reply 6

azulu

Original post by nicholasflamel

PS. Just as a slight correction, there are no "Group 7 subjects" haha. Art belongs to Group 6.

Oops, my bad :biggrin:

Of course, there are only 6 subjects, so there can't be any group 7 subjects :smile:

Original post by halldor

As I said, I'd like to read Economics at university, ideally.

Sorry, I didn't catch that.
As for your HLs, I would go with Maths HL, one science subject (best Physics or Chemistry, but pick sth for your liking) and one group 3 subject (Individuals and societies), e.g. geography (on of the easiest subject in the IB, imo) or history (one of the hardest :wink:

).
Some time ago, I wanted to study economics myself, but I decided to apply for sth else. The thing is, what admission offices recommend are the subjects I listed above. Maths HL is never compulsory (except for LSE, where you need a 7 in Maths HL), but recommended (if you take maths SL, you're obviously expected to achieve a higher grade than if you took it HL) and what (successful) applicants usually take are things like chemistry, physics, geography, history. The aim is to study diverse fields, on one hand more mathematics-oriented subjects (maths, physics) and on the other, sth socially-oriented.
You can look what Uni of Bath recommends (just an example, you can just browse entry requirements of your desired school) in their entry requirements for economics. Just go to the A-levels section and then recommended subjects. This is not particularly for IB, but it's the subject that matter.

If you have any questions, feel free to quote me. I think I know a thing or two about applying, picking subjects, even for economics :wink:

Reply 7

Skye25

To answer your original question, FM does count against the 4 HLs limit.

Now, in my opinion, you should only take FM if you're planning on reading Maths or you really, really, really enjoy doing maths and are good at it. As you say, it is an extension of HL Maths, which is already difficult enough.
Then again, by doing so you would spend double the number of hours on maths, which would surely improve your skills. And your teacher seems to think you are able to do well.

But do bear in mind that if you want to apply to UK universities they will (1) not care if you've done 4 HLs instead of 3, and (2) almost certainly make an offer conditional on both total points and HL scores, for the top unis this usually means 39+ points and 766 at HL. I don't know how these work with 4 HLs, maybe they don't care about the 4th one as long as the other 3 are fine. But even then you have to meet the point total, so you're going to need a good grade in FM.

Reply 8

halldor

Thank you both.
I appreciate and agree with much of your recommendations.

Original post by azulu

As for your HLs, I would go with Maths HL, one science subject (best Physics or Chemistry, but pick sth for your liking) and one group 3 subject (Individuals and societies), e.g. geography (on of the easiest subject in the IB, imo) or history (one of the hardest :wink:

Unfortunately, I'm required to take both English and a natural science Higher Level, which is rather restricting. I do quite like doing maths, and I feel like I have reasonable odds of getting a 7 in Maths HL (and most likely Further Maths HL, from what I know of the curriculum), although it of course is far from a sure thing.
I also like History a good deal, although I don't much care for the History teachers.

Original post by Skye25

But do bear in mind that if you want to apply to UK universities they will (1) not care if you've done 4 HLs instead of 3

I've heard this before, and I very much believe you. All that said, I'm forced to take 2 Higher Level classes I don't particularly want to take, so I suppose I'm trying to compensate for that somewhat. I'm also in general fairly academically ambitious and capable, so I think I might be able to handle 4 Higher Level classes and achieve a good score overall on the diploma, although it would of course be challenging.

Reply 9

suwuken

Don't take Further Maths if you don't want to study maths.

Seeing as you want to do economics, definitely do HL econ, and otherwise pick the subject you will enjoy. HL maths can be challenging, though if you like doing maths, it's also very rewarding (though keep in mind that it makes it harder to get a higher score because it's a tougher course). I also would not recommend doing 4 HL's just because it makes your life harder than it needs to be, and yeah, it doesn't really increase your chances to get into uni because it will most likely mean you get a lower grade (since you took harder classes).

If I were you, I'd do the English HL and Econ HL (if you can), take Maths HL (because as you say, you enjoy it, and you can always drop down later on if you notice you really don't) and then fill in the rest with subjects you enjoy.

Reply 10

username1112782

I finished my HL Further Maths exams this morning (I do HL Physics, Maths, F Maths).

I wouldn't recommend doing Further Maths as a 4th or 5th HL because there is very little crossover with normal HL Maths, even though it is seen as an 'extension', and it is extremely difficult! Further Maths is definitely the subject I have spent most of my time on during IB by far, and if I had been made to do it as a 4th or 5th HL I think I might have died. It was hard enough as a 3rd HL!

Reply 11

nothepreacher

Original post by nicholasflamel

Hey can you explain to me why aren't there further maths HL exams in november session? They are only in May sessions...

Reply 12

Skye25

Original post by nothepreacher

Hey can you explain to me why aren't there further maths HL exams in november session? They are only in May sessions...

This is what the IBO says:
"Further mathematics HL is not available for a November examination session and cannot be requested. However, diploma candidates may take all components of further mathematics HL in the previous May session. For example, a November 2015 diploma candidate is able to take further mathematics HL in May 2015 and then complete his or her remaining diploma subjects in November 2015."

My guess as to the "why" is there just may not be enough November session FM candidates to justify the costs of creating, shipping, and marking papers.