What you wish you knew FPAS
Hi all,
Any idea of what you wish you knew earlier on regarding FPAS? Any advice for current medical students- what is worth getting involved in etc? I am hoping to be a GP and would like to come back to the south later on. I don't know much about applying for foundation jobs and was wondering if anyone can shed some light. I don't want regrets later on.
I currently work in the NHS as an assistant -hope to keep this up for as long as I can.
Any idea of what you wish you knew earlier on regarding FPAS? Any advice for current medical students- what is worth getting involved in etc? I am hoping to be a GP and would like to come back to the south later on. I don't know much about applying for foundation jobs and was wondering if anyone can shed some light. I don't want regrets later on.
I currently work in the NHS as an assistant -hope to keep this up for as long as I can.
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Original post by derma2019
Hi all,
Any idea of what you wish you knew earlier on regarding FPAS? Any advice for current medical students- what is worth getting involved in etc? I am hoping to be a GP and would like to come back to the south later on. I don't know much about applying for foundation jobs and was wondering if anyone can shed some light. I don't want regrets later on.
I currently work in the NHS as an assistant -hope to keep this up for as long as I can.
Any idea of what you wish you knew earlier on regarding FPAS? Any advice for current medical students- what is worth getting involved in etc? I am hoping to be a GP and would like to come back to the south later on. I don't know much about applying for foundation jobs and was wondering if anyone can shed some light. I don't want regrets later on.
I currently work in the NHS as an assistant -hope to keep this up for as long as I can.
- Be an author on 2 pubmed indexed publications.
- Get an intercalated degree (the better the classification, the more points).
These two areas would be of help in improving your FPAS score based on the criteria for this year.
Original post by Differential
- Be an author on 2 pubmed indexed publications.
- Get an intercalated degree (the better the classification, the more points).
These two areas would be of help in improving your FPAS score based on the criteria for this year.
- Get an intercalated degree (the better the classification, the more points).
These two areas would be of help in improving your FPAS score based on the criteria for this year.
Thanks
Would ranking in the year group make that much difference? I'm in the middle-ish at the moment.Original post by derma2019
Thanks Would ranking in the year group make that much difference? I'm in the middle-ish at the moment.
Would ranking in the year group make that much difference? I'm in the middle-ish at the moment.Yup! You get more points dependant on where you come in your year compared to other students.
If you want to look into all the specifics, then I would recommend visiting
http://www.foundationprogramme.nhs.uk/pages/home
and downloading the 2015 Applicant's Handbook.
- Try and intercalate
- Consider applying for the academic programme, even if you don't plan to have a career in academia/teaching (just a way of not putting your eggs in one basket)
-Pick your choices, especially your backup choices carefully. Despite what people say, you must have some strategy to deanery selection - i.e. based on location, points, hospitals that specialise in particular fields etc
- SJT is a joke - it's anyones game. Despite all of the above efforts, it can be all ruined with SJT. Nonetheless, take it seriously and put as much effort into it (although I think one can put too much effort, I think I did). Even if you do do badly on the SJT, don't take it personally..it is in no way a reflection of your abilities/potential as a doctor - it's just a silly,cheap way of randomising everyone. I couldn't sound any more bitter about the SJT lol.
- Consider applying for the academic programme, even if you don't plan to have a career in academia/teaching (just a way of not putting your eggs in one basket)
-Pick your choices, especially your backup choices carefully. Despite what people say, you must have some strategy to deanery selection - i.e. based on location, points, hospitals that specialise in particular fields etc
- SJT is a joke - it's anyones game. Despite all of the above efforts, it can be all ruined with SJT. Nonetheless, take it seriously and put as much effort into it (although I think one can put too much effort, I think I did). Even if you do do badly on the SJT, don't take it personally..it is in no way a reflection of your abilities/potential as a doctor - it's just a silly,cheap way of randomising everyone. I couldn't sound any more bitter about the SJT lol.
Three things:
Intercalate - those 3 (or 4 if you get a first class) points can either just about get you into your top choice deanery or give you the extra points you need so that you aren't the bottom of your deanery once you make it in and left with all the less popular jobs/hospitals. Intercalating is also very useful years down the line.
SJT courses teach you nothing bar the general structure/timing re the exam (which you can read online/work out anyway). Go on placement, learn what it's like to be an actual doctor, read and understand the GMC guidelines (Good Medical Practice etc.), and apply some common sense. That'll get you at least an average mark in the exam. People who get 45+ are just cray...
Your ranking is important but isn't the be all and end all - you can get extra points from intercalating/getting a PubMed publication.
EDIT:
And the 4th thing (mainly to agree with the above post) - think very, very carefully about the order of your top 5 deaneries, and pay some attention to the deaneries ranked 6-10. The majority of people do get into their Top 5 deaneries (it said that somewhere in the FPAS handbook this year), but some people I know got their 6th or 9th choice, or in one case, their 16th choice (which they really weren't expecting). It's possible, so pay attention to the order and don't just assume you'll get into your top 2/3 choices.
Intercalate - those 3 (or 4 if you get a first class) points can either just about get you into your top choice deanery or give you the extra points you need so that you aren't the bottom of your deanery once you make it in and left with all the less popular jobs/hospitals. Intercalating is also very useful years down the line.
SJT courses teach you nothing bar the general structure/timing re the exam (which you can read online/work out anyway). Go on placement, learn what it's like to be an actual doctor, read and understand the GMC guidelines (Good Medical Practice etc.), and apply some common sense. That'll get you at least an average mark in the exam. People who get 45+ are just cray...
Your ranking is important but isn't the be all and end all - you can get extra points from intercalating/getting a PubMed publication.
EDIT:
And the 4th thing (mainly to agree with the above post) - think very, very carefully about the order of your top 5 deaneries, and pay some attention to the deaneries ranked 6-10. The majority of people do get into their Top 5 deaneries (it said that somewhere in the FPAS handbook this year), but some people I know got their 6th or 9th choice, or in one case, their 16th choice (which they really weren't expecting). It's possible, so pay attention to the order and don't just assume you'll get into your top 2/3 choices.
(edited 9 years ago)
Original post by caudate
- SJT is a joke - it's anyones game. Despite all of the above efforts, it can be all ruined with SJT. Nonetheless, take it seriously and put as much effort into it (although I think one can put too much effort, I think I did). Even if you do do badly on the SJT, don't take it personally..it is in no way a reflection of your abilities/potential as a doctor - it's just a silly,cheap way of randomising everyone. I couldn't sound any more bitter about the SJT lol.
- SJT is a joke - it's anyones game. Despite all of the above efforts, it can be all ruined with SJT. Nonetheless, take it seriously and put as much effort into it (although I think one can put too much effort, I think I did). Even if you do do badly on the SJT, don't take it personally..it is in no way a reflection of your abilities/potential as a doctor - it's just a silly,cheap way of randomising everyone. I couldn't sound any more bitter about the SJT lol.
I'm bitter about it too. Me and two other friends each got exactly 80% on the mock paper, and ended up with very different scores for the real thing. There was no consistency in the SJT, I approached it the same way I did for the mock (which I made myself do under exam conditions and in hand rather than on the computer), so I could not explain the differences in scores. Plus there were a lot of people in my year towards the top deciles who did not do very well, so I think it was an unfair way to score candidates. But hey I guess it saves FPAS time and money to make everyone do a test rather than employing people to mark white space answers. But it should at least be given less weighting than it currently gets, 50% is just too high!
One thing I would add from my and my friends experiences is that you need to firstly try and work out what kind of job you'd like for FY; both in terms of location, case mix, job mix DGH vs Teaching hospital, rural vs urban etc etc. Then figure out what your EPM is likely to be (so, for argument's sake lets say that you EPM is likely to be 44). Then work out ballpark scores for best case scenario SJT (45+), average (40-43ish), poor (36-39) and disaster (below 35). Then draw a list of the deanaries in contention, and figure out where you would be in that deanery with a score of 90, 84, 79 and 74 (or whatever range of possiblities you've drawn for yourself). Don't just focus on whether you would have gotten in or not, also look at where you would be in the deciles, and therefore what kind of range of jobs and locations you could hope to be in. So for example, if you would really like a job in a city centre teaching hospital there are some cities where a score of 83 would see you comfortably picking jobs in their tertiary centre, others where you would be picking scraps or completely out of contention. Also, think of worse case scenarios; would you prefer the Isle of Man (mersey deanery) to Carlisle (Northern)? (no offence to neither). This approach helped me!
The only thing that I would add to what's been already said is make sure you're fully aware of the local trust/programme allocation process for each deanery. Some deaneries like North Western and Northern have low cutoffs (low 70s) but to get into one of the central hospitals in Manchester/Newcastle you need 80+ usually so don't apply to such geographically large deaneries thinking you'll end up in the big city, you might get a score that's enough to get you into the deanery but you'll end up in a small town tens of miles away from the big city. This is particularly important in deaneries like North Western where you're in the same trust for bith F1 and F2.
Also, in some deaneries you get to rank every individual programme across the deanery regardless of location while in others you first rank your trust and then you can rank only the programmes within that trust (i.e. 2-stage process rather than 1). This is important if you're dead set on doing a rotation in a particular specialty.
Basically, spend some time on each deanery's website to see how the process works and send emails to enquire if anything is not clear, they're usually very helpful. Don't do it now though, wait another 2-3 months until they're done with this cycle.
Also, in some deaneries you get to rank every individual programme across the deanery regardless of location while in others you first rank your trust and then you can rank only the programmes within that trust (i.e. 2-stage process rather than 1). This is important if you're dead set on doing a rotation in a particular specialty.
Basically, spend some time on each deanery's website to see how the process works and send emails to enquire if anything is not clear, they're usually very helpful. Don't do it now though, wait another 2-3 months until they're done with this cycle.
Original post by twmffat_twp
One thing I would add from my and my friends experiences is that you need to firstly try and work out what kind of job you'd like for FY; both in terms of location, case mix, job mix DGH vs Teaching hospital, rural vs urban etc etc. Then figure out what your EPM is likely to be (so, for argument's sake lets say that you EPM is likely to be 44). Then work out ballpark scores for best case scenario SJT (45+), average (40-43ish), poor (36-39) and disaster (below 35). Then draw a list of the deanaries in contention, and figure out where you would be in that deanery with a score of 90, 84, 79 and 74 (or whatever range of possiblities you've drawn for yourself). Don't just focus on whether you would have gotten in or not, also look at where you would be in the deciles, and therefore what kind of range of jobs and locations you could hope to be in. So for example, if you would really like a job in a city centre teaching hospital there are some cities where a score of 83 would see you comfortably picking jobs in their tertiary centre, others where you would be picking scraps or completely out of contention. Also, think of worse case scenarios; would you prefer the Isle of Man (mersey deanery) to Carlisle (Northern)? (no offence to neither). This approach helped me!
just to clarify this piece of misinformation 36-39 is by no means a poor SJT score, in fact the average this year was 38.5 I believe
Original post by pgreg1
just to clarify this piece of misinformation 36-39 is by no means a poor SJT score, in fact the average this year was 38.5 I believe
You know what I mean! I was just going to say the same thing. I suspect the average this year will be a tad lower! Pre SJT I also thought 40 was an average score..but I think its actually a pretty good score, especially with the way things have gone this year - reflecting on my medical school and friends experiences.
Also, don't only look at the mean SJT score, but look at the modal scores! If I remember correctly, a good chunk of people got below 38. (Based on the bar graph in the FPAS handbook)
(edited 9 years ago)
Sorry guys- I think scores have decreased quite a bit this year! I went on my years things
Original post by caudate
- SJT is a joke - it's anyones game. Despite all of the above efforts, it can be all ruined with SJT. Nonetheless, take it seriously and put as much effort into it (although I think one can put too much effort, I think I did). Even if you do do badly on the SJT, don't take it personally..it is in no way a reflection of your abilities/potential as a doctor - it's just a silly,cheap way of randomising everyone.
- SJT is a joke - it's anyones game. Despite all of the above efforts, it can be all ruined with SJT. Nonetheless, take it seriously and put as much effort into it (although I think one can put too much effort, I think I did). Even if you do do badly on the SJT, don't take it personally..it is in no way a reflection of your abilities/potential as a doctor - it's just a silly,cheap way of randomising everyone.
Someone evidently didn't do well on the SJT
I thought it was quite good. A lot of very book-smart people in my year who I know full well to lack common sense or be totally helpless or impractical in real life did very badly on the SJT which didn't surprise me one bit.
(edited 9 years ago)
Evidently I didn't do that badly actually because I still got into one of my top 5 choices.
It's not as absolute as that. I've heard of even the most smart AND "all-rounded" not doing very well on SJT.
It's not as absolute as that. I've heard of even the most smart AND "all-rounded" not doing very well on SJT.
Original post by Friar Chris
Someone evidently didn't do well on the SJT
I thought it was quite good. A lot of very book-smart people in my year who I know full well to lack common sense or be totally helpless or impractical in real life did very badly on the SJT which didn't surprise me one bit.
I thought it was quite good. A lot of very book-smart people in my year who I know full well to lack common sense or be totally helpless or impractical in real life did very badly on the SJT which didn't surprise me one bit.
How many hospitals are you allowed to put down in the application form?
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Posted from TSR Mobile
I agree with those who have mentioned paying attention to your rankings. Rank where you want to go carefully, as you could literally end up anywhere!
My best advice for SJT is don't go on a SJT course. You can prepare more than adequately with the practice paper and GMC guidance, and it doesn't cost an arm and a leg.
Do apply for the academic programme if you think you can manage with reaching all the competencies and doing the academic stuff at the same time. But even if you are unsure it is worth applying as it doesn't affect your main application.
My best advice for SJT is don't go on a SJT course. You can prepare more than adequately with the practice paper and GMC guidance, and it doesn't cost an arm and a leg.
Do apply for the academic programme if you think you can manage with reaching all the competencies and doing the academic stuff at the same time. But even if you are unsure it is worth applying as it doesn't affect your main application.
all very helpful tips so thanks to all for them.
Anyone here applied and got pre-allocation as this is what I will be doing. have looked on ukfpo at their info already but any more info would be useful.
Anyone here applied and got pre-allocation as this is what I will be doing. have looked on ukfpo at their info already but any more info would be useful.
I think the whole top decile students get crappy SJT scores because they lack common sense/social skills and lower decile students get better SJT scores because they have common sense/social skills argument is a bit hit and miss.
Two people I know - Both top decile intercalators (one of them had a publication too). One is a close friend and actually told me their SJT score (42.something) which by this years standards is actually quite a good score and means they have a lovely choice of the jobs/locations in their deanery. The other didn't get any of their top 4 choices (London) because of a "crappy" SJT. I don't know their actual score but one can make assumptions about the sort of score that would have been.
Point is, you can be good academically AND do well in the SJT, and vice versa, or bad academically AND do well in the SJT and vice versa. The two aren't mutually exclusive - being good at one doesn't mean you'll be crappy at the other. Moreover, I'm not entirely convinced an exam like the SJT is a good indicator of someone's common sense/social skills - it just means you agree with the majority of the "expert panel". And in reality, there really is very little between A and B or D and E etc. I'm not even that bitter about the SJT; I scored an above average score which I am cool with.
Two people I know - Both top decile intercalators (one of them had a publication too). One is a close friend and actually told me their SJT score (42.something) which by this years standards is actually quite a good score and means they have a lovely choice of the jobs/locations in their deanery. The other didn't get any of their top 4 choices (London) because of a "crappy" SJT. I don't know their actual score but one can make assumptions about the sort of score that would have been.
Point is, you can be good academically AND do well in the SJT, and vice versa, or bad academically AND do well in the SJT and vice versa. The two aren't mutually exclusive - being good at one doesn't mean you'll be crappy at the other. Moreover, I'm not entirely convinced an exam like the SJT is a good indicator of someone's common sense/social skills - it just means you agree with the majority of the "expert panel". And in reality, there really is very little between A and B or D and E etc. I'm not even that bitter about the SJT; I scored an above average score which I am cool with.
Original post by Medicine Man
I think the whole top decile students get crappy SJT scores because they lack common sense/social skills and lower decile students get better SJT scores because they have common sense/social skills argument is a bit hit and miss.
Two people I know - Both top decile intercalators (one of them had a publication too). One is a close friend and actually told me their SJT score (42.something) which by this years standards is actually quite a good score and means they have a lovely choice of the jobs/locations in their deanery. The other didn't get any of their top 4 choices (London) because of a "crappy" SJT. I don't know their actual score but one can make assumptions about the sort of score that would have been.
Point is, you can be good academically AND do well in the SJT, and vice versa, or bad academically AND do well in the SJT and vice versa. The two aren't mutually exclusive - being good at one doesn't mean you'll be crappy at the other. Moreover, I'm not entirely convinced an exam like the SJT is a good indicator of someone's common sense/social skills - it just means you agree with the majority of the "expert panel". And in reality, there really is very little between A and B or D and E etc. I'm not even that bitter about the SJT; I scored an above average score which I am cool with.
Two people I know - Both top decile intercalators (one of them had a publication too). One is a close friend and actually told me their SJT score (42.something) which by this years standards is actually quite a good score and means they have a lovely choice of the jobs/locations in their deanery. The other didn't get any of their top 4 choices (London) because of a "crappy" SJT. I don't know their actual score but one can make assumptions about the sort of score that would have been.
Point is, you can be good academically AND do well in the SJT, and vice versa, or bad academically AND do well in the SJT and vice versa. The two aren't mutually exclusive - being good at one doesn't mean you'll be crappy at the other. Moreover, I'm not entirely convinced an exam like the SJT is a good indicator of someone's common sense/social skills - it just means you agree with the majority of the "expert panel". And in reality, there really is very little between A and B or D and E etc. I'm not even that bitter about the SJT; I scored an above average score which I am cool with.
agree with everything you said m8, my opinion is that SJT is in no way a measure of common sense, the test is a load of rubbish and why it is even used we can only speculate as to the reason (requires little effort? keeps people away from the south? justifies someones job?)
btw I did above average on the SJT and got into my chosen deanery. thought I had to put this disclaimer at the bottom of my post before a certain self-satisfied poster accuses me of being bitter.
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