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Should Israel renounce Iran's right to exist?

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Original post by whorace
The killing of civilians is never okay, and this goes for Israel as well, in the case of air support I can see why that decision is made for strategy, but with respect to ground troops I don't know enough to criticise the Israeli military. I only know that one of them, domestically, is a democratic state committed to the rule of law. When Palestine gets leaders that have the genuine consent of their people, and act in the interests of the principles of peace, liberty and justice, and not provoke the Israelis i'll support them.


I'm Pro-Peace :smile:

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Reply 21
Original post by Synthesize
I can't understand how this question even makes sense to anyone. Persia is an ancient civilisation (shame about it being raped by Islam, but regardless) that has been in the same location for thousands of years. Israel is 100 years old and relies solely on America for its acknowledgement. How can Israel denounce Persia? That's the most illogical thing I think I have ever heard.


Israeli has existed for millennium just not recognized.
Original post by whorace
Israeli has existed for millennium just not recognized.

Not at all. Not as a self-governing power in the same location for millenium. Read Jewish scripture and you will be aware that the Jews were expelled by God. This is their belief, go and read about it. Most of the "Jews" in Israel are not even semetic, thus are not the inheritors of the land by ancestry. Again, go research this and you will be aware.
Reply 23
Original post by Synthesize
Not at all. Not as a self-governing power in the same location for millenium. Read Jewish scripture and you will be aware that the Jews were expelled by God. This is their belief, go and read about it. Most of the "Jews" in Israel are not even semetic, thus are not the inheritors of the land by ancestry. Again, go research this and you will be aware.


Jews existed in Palestine and have done for millennium, when they collapsed as a world power it created a diaspora, they found places in some sympathetic areas (Muslim Spain) where they assimilated but Palestine has always been a national home to the Jews because of scripture. Nonetheless there were always a small amount of Jews in Palestine.
Reply 24
Original post by whorace
The killing of civilians is never okay, and this goes for Israel as well, in the case of air support I can see why that decision is made for strategy, but with respect to ground troops I don't know enough to criticise the Israeli military. I only know that one of them, domestically, is a democratic state committed to the rule of law. When Palestine gets leaders that have the genuine consent of their people, and act in the interests of the principles of peace, liberty and justice, and not provoke the Israelis i'll support them.


Seeing as what Israel have done to the Palestinians, it seems more like a fight against oppression. Most other countries would be internationally condemned for their war crimes but Israel can just keep dodging because they got the USA behind them. The killing of civilians is justified with the human shield argument which has not been proven or verified by anyone. Were those kids on the beach Human shields?
Reply 25
Original post by opitloy
Seeing as what Israel have done to the Palestinians, it seems more like a fight against oppression. Most other countries would be internationally condemned for their war crimes but Israel can just keep dodging because they got the USA behind them. The killing of civilians is justified with the human shield argument which has not been proven or verified by anyone. Were those kids on the beach Human shields?


I don't know about that particular example, but apparently it has been verified by the UN

http://www.un.org/apps/news/story.asp?NewsID=24593&Cr=palestin&Cr1

If Palestine was a democracy i'd be more sympathetic.
Original post by whorace
Jews existed in Palestine and have done for millennium, when they collapsed as a world power it created a diaspora, they found places in some sympathetic areas (Muslim Spain) where they assimilated but Palestine has always been a national home to the Jews because of scripture. Nonetheless there were always a small amount of Jews in Palestine.

Noone denied there have always been Jews in the land. That does not logically equate to conclusion that "Israel has existed for millenium" though.
By their very own religious texts they have been banned from the land. Why thus should you desire to force them back? Ignoring the fact they have no right to the land because they are not genetic descendants of those Jews who lived there.
Please try again to justify the existence of Israel when acknowledging these important facts, and how it could ever have any right to denounce a far greater country than itself. The Iran problem is an Islamic problem. Without Islam Iran wouldn't want to kill and destroy Israel.
Reply 27
Original post by Synthesize
Noone denied there have always been Jews in the land. That does not logically equate to conclusion that "Israel has existed for millenium" though.
By their very own religious texts they have been banned from the land. Why thus should you desire to force them back? Ignoring the fact they have no right to the land because they are not genetic descendants of those Jews who lived there.
Please try again to justify the existence of Israel when acknowledging these important facts, and how it could ever have any right to denounce a far greater country than itself. The Iran problem is an Islamic problem. Without Islam Iran wouldn't want to kill and destroy Israel.


I think an historic justification makes little sense now, the fact is that millions of people live in Israel, these people cannot be assimilated into a new country except at their expense. It is not fair to punish the people of Israel for the decisions of their leaders.
Original post by whorace
I think an historic justification makes little sense now, the fact is that millions of people live in Israel, these people cannot be assimilated into a new country except at their expense. It is not fair to punish the people of Israel for the decisions of their leaders.

This thread isn't about punishment. It's about denouncing a country. No country has the right to denounce any other country, and Israel denouncing any country is as illogical as it can get. Persia was a beautiful region rich in history and culture before Islamification. The reason Iran wants to eradicate Israel is for no reason other than the religion of Islam.
Original post by Synthesize
I can't understand how this question even makes sense to anyone. Persia is an ancient civilisation (shame about it being raped by Islam, but regardless) that has been in the same location for thousands of years. Israel is 100 years old and relies solely on America for its acknowledgement. How can Israel denounce Persia? That's the most illogical thing I think I have ever heard.


The islamic republic of iran has only existed since 1979... they could refuse to recognise the IRI as a legitimate state.

The old Soviet Union was very pro Israel to start with and that was hardly a American puppet
Original post by Joinedup
The islamic republic of iran has only existed since 1979... they could refuse to recognise the IRI as a legitimate state.

A name change does not make it a new country or civilisation that popped up though so that is rather beside the point.
Original post by Joinedup
The old Soviet Union was very pro Israel to start with and that was hardly a American puppet

My post clearly talks about today.
Reply 31
Original post by Synthesize
This thread isn't about punishment. It's about denouncing a country. No country has the right to denounce any other country, and Israel denouncing any country is as illogical as it can get. Persia was a beautiful region rich in history and culture before Islamification. The reason Iran wants to eradicate Israel is for no reason other than the religion of Islam.


The Persian Empire was very civil indeed, even comparatively to the Greeks it had a wonderful civilization. The Iranian government however, since the coup d'etat is not committed to the welfare of its citizens, and its organization makes it liable to acts of aggression that should make anyone concerned.
Reply 32
Original post by whorace
I don't know about that particular example, but apparently it has been verified by the UN

http://www.un.org/apps/news/story.asp?NewsID=24593&Cr=palestin&Cr1

If Palestine was a democracy i'd be more sympathetic.


Ok then, my bad there but It can't be a total cause for it. And even then Israel has war crimes to its name and it still has not been punished. I'm sure any government would fight against its oppressors so even if a democratically elected government was used in Gaza this wouldn't stop. Israel needs to face its crimes, its the main reason for the conflict.
Original post by whorace
The Persian Empire was very civil indeed, even comparatively to the Greeks it had a wonderful civilization. The Iranian government however, since the coup d'etat is not committed to the welfare of its citizens, and its organization makes it liable to acts of aggression that should make anyone concerned.

There are many countries liable to acts of aggression, but there is no logic in "renouncing their right to exist", especially by far newer countries. It makes no sense.
Reply 34
And even for the Human shield argument its been said Israelis also did it themselves.
If you are a violent person which has punched me in the face before, and you are threatening to do it again, can I just renounce your existence? Would ignoring your existence solve the threat? Nope. I don't understand the OP at all. Ranting about the threat of Iran is another topic to the OP altogether.
Reply 36
Original post by Synthesize
There are many countries liable to acts of aggression, but there is no logic in "renouncing their right to exist", especially by far newer countries. It makes no sense.


Most countries liable to acts of aggression are subject to intense media, domestic and international scrutiny as well as Parliamentary procedures, no such thing exists in Iran. If the leader decides to declare war, thats that. Any country can refuse to recognise the right of another internationally, its simply the act of refusing to recognise its legitimacy by not negotiating, and in extreme circumstances trading. Vichy France under the Nazis was renounced by the French resistance for example
Reply 37
Original post by opitloy
Ok then, my bad there but It can't be a total cause for it. And even then Israel has war crimes to its name and it still has not been punished. I'm sure any government would fight against its oppressors so even if a democratically elected government was used in Gaza this wouldn't stop. Israel needs to face its crimes, its the main reason for the conflict.


Of course, but right now what we have is a situation where there is no clear oppressor, both governments commit atrocities. If the Palestinians renounce violent methods, we will know for certain that sanctions must be placed on Israel.
Original post by whorace
Jews existed in Palestine and have done for millennium, when they collapsed as a world power it created a diaspora, they found places in some sympathetic areas (Muslim Spain) where they assimilated but Palestine has always been a national home to the Jews because of scripture. Nonetheless there were always a small amount of Jews in Palestine.


No, it was regarded as a place of particular spiritual significance, but no more a 'national home' than Catholics or Buddhists would regard Rome or Tibet as their 'national home'. Largely because the modern idea of the nation-state didn't really exist until the 18th Century.
Original post by whorace
its simply the act of refusing to recognise its legitimacy by not negotiating, and in extreme circumstances trading.

You seem to be under the impression that Iran has been and is well treated by the rest of the world. Do you live in an alternate reality?

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