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America will train Neo-Nazi 'Azov' Battalion in Ukraine

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Original post by The Dictator
They are Nazis, whether you like it or not. Objectively studied, they are Nazis.

So why are we cheering them on?


So, the great patriotic Russians are claiming anybody against them is facist.

Sounds like emotive terminology being used for the domestic market but being completely misrepresented by westerners.

The Ukrainians have called the Russians Nazis.
Original post by The Dictator
Who should it have been? Ukrainian armed soldiers? NATO armed soldiers? UN armed soldiers? Come on. We all know that internationalism doesn't work.


Uh... How about no one but the people affected?

Internationalism doesn't work? Cool story bro - I recomend you read the rather excellent the world us flat to change your perspective. Suffice to say your probably writing this on a device made from components across the globe.



Furthermore, it isn't like the Ukrainian government went out of its way to provoke the paranoia of the Russian minority by including neo-Nazis in its government and scrapping Russian's special status in the constitution.


First of all the azov lot aren't neo nazis- they're nationalists in the same vein as Marie le pen. Secondly they're not in government. Thirdly what are you talking about in the constitution?

Ukrainians former PM was a Russian puppet who spent over 50% of ukraines total budget on the population in the regions now under Russian control (accounting for 16% of ukraines total population). He also is worth 15 billion dollars despite a modest government salary.
Didn't America support the Mujahideen in Afghanistan to fight against the soviets? That ended up resulting in a civil war and the rise of the Taliban, doesn't seem like a good idea.
Original post by MatureStudent36
So, the great patriotic Russians are claiming anybody against them is facist.

Sounds like emotive terminology being used for the domestic market but being completely misrepresented by westerners.

The Ukrainians have called the Russians Nazis.


Obviously there's a lot of heated language being used but it's worth noting that Russian nationalism is highly unpleasant - aleksandr Dugin is not a nice man.
Reply 24
Original post by MatureStudent36


The Ukrainians have called the Russians Nazis.


Junk comparison, Azov being self-proclaimed Neo-Nazis, adopt Nazi insignia, and openly glorify collaborators (Stepan Bandera).

Nazis in every shape and form.
(edited 8 years ago)
Reply 25
Original post by Davij038


First of all the azov lot aren't neo nazis- they're nationalists in the same vein as Marie le pen. Secondly they're not in government.


Nonsense. Haven't seen the NF adopt Nazi insignia like the black wheel and SS emblem as party policy. They're not in government but have an attachement with the Interior ministry and de facto integrated into the Ukrainian armed forces.
(edited 8 years ago)
Original post by Rovey
Nonsense. Haven't seen the NF adopt Nazi insignia like the black wheel and SS emblem as party policy


NF has a history of holocaust denial, anti semitism, aggressive racism and conspiracy theory. If there are neo nazis in Russia they'll be backing NF.


. They're not in government but have an attachement with the Interior ministry and de facto integrated into the Ukrainian armed forces.


This is true. The problem is as I understand it the Ukrainian government is short of reliable troops and the azov are actively assisting in expelling Russians- Ukraine is attempting to join NATO which will probably be declined- unless the west backs Ukraine what choice does Ukraine have other than invasion by an autocratic and increasingly fascistic Russia.
Reply 27
Original post by Davij038
NF has a history of holocaust denial, anti semitism, aggressive racism and conspiracy theory. If there are neo nazis in Russia they'll be backing NF.


So now you think Azov are Neo Nazis ?

You said Azov are nationalists like the national front, now you're saying russian neo nazis support the National front ?


this is true. The problem is as I understand it the Ukrainian government is short of reliable troops and the azov are actively assisting in expelling Russians- Ukraine is attempting to join NATO which will probably be declined- unless the west backs Ukraine what choice does Ukraine have other than invasion by an autocratic and increasingly fascistic Russia.


They can't possibly be short of troops and the Azov is a tiny militia anyway so it's not like they need to find themselves in bed with neo nazis to front the fight against the separatists. And there's no excuse for the United States to find themselves in bed with Neo Nazis.
(edited 8 years ago)
Reply 28
Original post by Rovey
So now you think Azov are Neo Nazis ?

You said Azov are nationalists like the national front, now you're saying russian neo nazis support the National front ?




They can't possibly be short of troops and the Azov is a tiny militia anyway so it's not like they need to find themselves in bed with neo nazis to front the fight against the separatists. And there's no excuse for the United States to find themselves in bed with Neo Nazis.


They are short of well trained, well equipped and well motivated troops. The Azov battalion is all of these things. They have a lot of private money behind them and attract recruits from outside the country too. The Ukrainian government is desperate enough to have to rely on men like this.

Posted from TSR Mobile
Original post by Aj12
They are short of well trained, well equipped and well motivated troops. The Azov battalion is all of these things. They have a lot of private money behind them and attract recruits from outside the country too. The Ukrainian government is desperate enough to have to rely on men like this.

Posted from TSR Mobile


I think it's fair to say this sums it up.

When you've been annexed by a big bad bear and the people who said would help you don't, uou take help from any body who will offer it.
Original post by Rovey


You said Azov are nationalists like the national front, now you're saying russian neo nazis support the National front.


Neo nazis would support the NF as the closest possible thing to their ideology just like neo nazis would support ukip as the closest thing they have.

NF and Ukip aren't neo nazis but they can often be supported by them and agree on things like immigration and the EU, hence them sitting together in the European Parliament.
Reply 31
Original post by Davij038
Neo nazis would support the NF as the closest possible thing to their ideology just like neo nazis would support ukip as the closest thing they have.

NF and Ukip aren't neo nazis but they can often be supported by them and agree on things like immigration and the EU, hence them sitting together in the European Parliament.


Azov are Nazis because they identify themselves as such. They have it on their uniform. The Front Nationale does not, but some would still identity them as such.
Not that I care much but the amount of white-washing going on in this thread is sorta cute.

Whether you personally like it or not or whether it complicates ones support for the Ukrainian government/forces, there are neo-nazi hyper-nationalist militias fighting with Kiev's boys.

Ukraine is a cluster**** of a situation but it's in no small part to lots of history, which is why there is a sizeable Russian minority, and also why there are neo-nazi groups, descended from good old fashioned plain regular nazi groups from the world war two era.

Russia is in the wrong broadly, but whether an act of desperation or not, allowing those nazi militias to fight for Kiev sends one very clear (if unintended) message to the ethnic/pro Russian population about their role and future in Ukraine should Kiev win.

But I suspect the authorities in Kiev as weak as they are couldn't remove the militias from the conflict zone if they wanted to.
Quite a messy understanding of Azov...

Looks like Western propaganda , that calls every media channel of Russia as a propaganda, completely brainwashed its population...

Azov was set-up by a Ukrainian MP to be part of Anti-terrorist operation (ATO), the name of the operation is kind of mind shaping because people in Donbass are not terrorists.

Ask yourself, why Kiev started this war? Why war? Why not diplomatic solutions? Did militia ever used aggressive and invasive tactics? No. Whats the purpose of militia? Are they professional soldiers? Of course not, many of them were born in Donbass and defends the interest of the region..

If Russian regular army was really present in Ukraine, Kiev would have been reached in 7 days...
Reply 34
They'll call everything propaganda when you present the counter discourse as it relates to Russia.

it's as if you can no longer be objective without coming off as a Putin ass licker.
(edited 8 years ago)
Original post by Rovey
They'll call everything propaganda when you present the counter discourse as it relates to Russia.

it's as if you can no longer be objective without coming off as a Putin ass licker.


Putin is the only president in the world that answers to citizens questions for 4 hours live.

BBC s Sarah Rainsford says that it is choleographed but cannot back it up.

Propoganda:rolleyes:
Original post by Rovey
They'll call everything propaganda when you present the counter discourse as it relates to Russia.

it's as if you can no longer be objective without coming off as a Putin ass licker.


And when you present something, please back it up with an evidence if you do not want to look like a propoganda
Reply 37
Original post by DaniilKaya
And when you present something, please back it up with an evidence if you do not want to look like a propoganda


Western media is very slick in the sense that it gives an air of critcal analysis on key areas and people can't see how rife the propaganda apparatus is and subconsciously they can't process things which contradict their worldview.
Original post by Rovey
Western media is very slick in the sense that it gives an air of critcal analysis on key areas and people can't see how rife the propaganda apparatus is and subconsciously they can't process things which contradict their worldview.


Critical analysis is not the evidence of Russians shooting down a plane

Critical analysis - critics and analysts can be easily manipulated, but hard technical evidence backed with details and source can be seen as a truth
(edited 8 years ago)
Without going into a deep philosophical essay, there are a number of reasons Nazism is a popular sign of rebellion in the Ukrainian right wing.

Firstly, during world war 2, Ukrainian (as well as a number of other Eastern European) independence fighters were supported by Nazi's; from their perspective the Soviet Union was a bigger threat to their identity.

Secondly, Nazism focuses a lot on folk identity. Ukraine had historic repression of it's identity as a country and strong nationalism helps bring it out. Nazism is essentially all about a folklore German identity being repressed by modernist forces, and indeed Ukrainian identity has been repressed by not only Russia but also it's modernist Soviet Union form.

Coincidentally, Germany's Nazism focused a lot on the agricultural, rural past of the country. Ukraine's identity is also heavily agricultural; after all it is a country that lies exactly on an extremely fertile streak of land (Chernozem) and a lot of Ukrainian folklore comes from an image describing rich fields, satisfied families living with full bellies, mystical bards travelling from field to field and so on- Nazism focuses on the unbreakable union of the spirit of man and nature, which for Ukraine is an integral part of it's identity.

Tl;dr - Ukrainian neo-nazis are not nazis in the sense you expect. Nazi philosophy compliments Ukrainian ideals on it's identity and that's why Ukrainian nationalists take up neo nazi insignia. In reality, they work with Jews readily (consider how many of them are in the ruling gov't) and have no central racist policy- parties like Svoboda / Right Sector focus on Ukraine's independence from Russian INFLUENCE, but those that have actual ethnic hatred are few in numbers.

They are not real Nazis.

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