Are the Tories really dead in Scotland, are the SNP socalist?

Original post by Smack

I think you should start reading some comments on pro independence websites to see the kind of opinion that whilst not in the majority does represent a fairly large amount of Scots. Many of these people would have voted Labour in general elections up until becoming converts to the church of the SNP in the last few years.

I do go to SNP sites, it is really a bit childish. I think Alex Salmond, in his seat, for example, is on 38% , that might win him the seat, but its not really even 50% of Scottish people in a stirred up state... If Alex himself can't even get 50%...lol

Original post by FredOrJohn

I do go to SNP sites, it is really a bit childish. I think Alex Salmond, in his seat, for example, is on 38% , that might win him the seat, but its not really even 50% of Scottish people in a stirred up state... If Alex himself can't even get 50%...lol

I'm in the seat in which Alex Salmond is contesting. Given that it was a fairly strong No area, the fact that he's likely to win at all clearly demonstrates a large swing towards nationalism.

Reply 43

Original post by Smack

I'm in the seat in which Alex Salmond is contesting. Given that it was a fairly strong No area, the fact that he's likely to win at all clearly demonstrates a large swing towards nationalism.

Not by much though. I think about 38% voted "yes" in the referendum in that seat, so for him to get 38% now , is hardly a major change.

Reply 44

Original post by ChaoticButterfly

Since when does ever so centre left = socialist? They are not a socialist party. If they were they would all the way over in the left direction, obviously. It may have socialists in it but in terms of what they want to do, they are mild social democrat at best which is not inherently socialist.

Come on what a biased picture.

The Lib-Dems are definitely more Libertarian then the SDLP - and of course Capitalism is a Libertarian philosophy so the CONS should be on that line somewhere too.

Reply 45

ChaoticButterfly

20

Original post by FredOrJohn

Come on what a biased picture.

The Lib-Dems are definitely more Libertarian then the SDLP - and of course Capitalism is a Libertarian philosophy so the CONS should be on that line somewhere too.

No it isn't. You can have an authoritarian capitalist based society.

IN what way are the SNP trying to let workers own and run the means of production and control the money they produce? You are ignoring the libertarian left quadrant as well.

Reply 46

whorace

2

Original post by zippity.doodah

of course they're socialist

Seriously wtf at that scale, the SNP are hardly that far left or authoritarian, far less than the Respect party.

Reply 47

Original post by ChaoticButterfly

No it isn't. You can have an authoritarian capitalist based society.

IN what way are the SNP trying to let workers own and run the means of production and control the money they produce? You are ignoring the libertarian left quadrant as well.

The SNP are the only party that seems to want to ban alcohol at scottish football grounds (unlike English) - traditionally drug policy is the measure of liberalism.

I say SNP are authoritarian right using the alcohol guide as the policy.

Capitalism is basically the government out of economics - which is liberal by definition (eg non-interventionalism)

Reply 48

zippity.doodah

3

Original post by ChaoticButterfly

Since when does ever so centre left = socialist? They are not a socialist party. If they were they would all the way over in the left direction, obviously. It may have socialists in it but in terms of what they want to do, they are mild social democrat at best which is not inherently socialist.

if they are in the red square, and you have to sides, the capitalist (blue/purple) side, and the socialist (red/green) side, then how are they capitalist? either they're more capitalist or they're more socialist, and clearly they're more socialist than capitalist according to this, so obviously, "socialist" is a fair label if we're being objective. do you consider the lib dems, the tories and labour "not capitalist" overall?

(edited 8 years ago)

Reply 49

zippity.doodah

3

Original post by whorace

Seriously wtf at that scale, the SNP are hardly that far left or authoritarian, far less than the Respect party.

how so?

Reply 50

MatureStudent36

Original post by zippity.doodah

how so?

The SNP are very centralised and authoritarian for a start.

Reply 51

The_Mighty_Bush

3

It's a pretty terrible scale. Conservatives depicted as pretty much as far right as it is possible to be economically although they support the NHS and state education etc.

Reply 52

Gary_92

Due to unfair constituency boundaries, the Tories are vastly underrepresented in Scotland. The one seat they do hold (David Mundell's) is a massive rural seat, extending from the Borders right up to South Lanarkshire, a council area just outside Glasgow. The SNP are certainly to the left of New Labour, and are thus very popular. Like Old Labour they are committed to "a something for nothing culture" i.e free tuition fees, free prescriptions, basically free everything, which is very attractive to the traditional Labour voters who live in the council schemes in Glasgow. Like old-fashioned Labour voters, the typical SNP voter hates the rich for being rich, and generally fights the class war ; referring to tories as "posh toffs", simply because they are jealous that they never had the opportunity of a privileged education. They usually blame someone else for their problems (usually the tories), and do not believe in individual responsibility.

Reply 53

L i b

Original post by Ecksalmond

I assume you mean independence.

What about the positives such as wanting to stop 100,000 kids falling into poverty in the next 5 years. Getting rid of nukes. Ending fracking, saving the NHS, free uni education, free prescriptions. All these are to benefit scotland and the people that live here. What's not to agree with

I think all mainstread parties want to reduce child poverty and make the NHS work.

Free prescriptions and free tuition take public money and dole it out as benefits to the middle classes. It is them who are benefiting, not the poor - and I, for one, think taking taxpayers' money to fund hand-outs to people who are comfortably off isn't reasonable.

Ending fracking is a terrible idea. For a start, there is currently no on-shore fracking taking place - but the potential for it is considerable.

Original post by Ecksalmond

How much did Scotland's budget fall by?

Considerably less than England's in comparable 'devolved' competency areas. Not to mention that the Scottish Government can increase Scotland's budget by, y'know, taxing stuff.

Reply 54

L i b

Original post by Ecksalmond

The Yes campaign was not about the SNP. It wasn't about any party. Do you think if Scotland didn't contribute more to the UK than Westminster admits they would have put up a fight about us leaving?

Putting aside the usual gestures to a non-distinct "they", yes. Yes, I do. Of course, "they" in this case were Scottish people who saw the damage that leaving the union would cause Scotland: that's who campaigned, that's who worked hard. Sure, there were English people who supported, who said they valued Scotland within the UK - but the campaign was Scottish: it was not some other "they".

But believe it or not, unionists see the union as more than a way for the Celtic fringe to extract money out of the English. We believe the UK makes us all better off - and that division would cause damage to us all.

Of course, this is entirely obvious. Do you think the only people who value the unity of the United States are those who think their home state does well out of the arrangement, shafting other states in the union? Of course not. Do you think the SNP would want to keep Glasgow in Scotland, should there be a movement for it to leave? I suspect they would.

Reply 55

username1331498

16

The Conservatives aren't dead in Scotland. I know many people who will be voting Conservative in the upcoming election.

Reply 56

Original post by EatAndRevise

The Conservatives aren't dead in Scotland. I know many people who will be voting Conservative in the upcoming election.

This is how I see it.
You are right wing as a person (which is to me a person who thinks "What do I get out of this" rather than "what does society as a whole get" (eg think thatcher and govt sell offs of council properties))...

A right wing person in Scotland used to vote SNP for the same reasons people vote LIB-DEM, it gives your seat more leverage to get things for "you" - eg your area.

However since the SNP are now the establishment in Scotland, this is no longer true, being SNP will probably damage your area at the expense of those areas in Scotland that do not vote SNP.

So I would say, a CON in Scotland, should vote LIB-DEM if they are the main opposition, or LAB if they are the main opposition in that seat. If they themselves are the main opposition to the SNP in a seat, they should vote CON.

Clearly there is loads of mileage in getting stuff by being the anti-SNP seat.

Reply 57

Midlander

Original post by FredOrJohn

The SNP are the only party that seems to want to ban alcohol at scottish football grounds (unlike English) - traditionally drug policy is the measure of liberalism.

I say SNP are authoritarian right using the alcohol guide as the policy.

Capitalism is basically the government out of economics - which is liberal by definition (eg non-interventionalism)

In England you are banned from having it 'within sight of the playing area' because Thatcher couldn't trust people to have a drink. All other sports fans are saints and never disgrace themselves so the classist discrimination was justified.

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Reply 58

Midlander

Original post by Smack

I'm in the seat in which Alex Salmond is contesting. Given that it was a fairly strong No area, the fact that he's likely to win at all clearly demonstrates a large swing towards nationalism.

Good to see people voting for his ego and publicity rather than what is best for the constituency. Of course you also have idiots like one of the posters in this thread who doesn't support independence but will vote SNP.

How thick are some of the electorate?

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Reply 59

L i b