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Are the Tories really dead in Scotland, are the SNP socalist?

Last general election(2010) around 421,000 voted cons, around 492,000 voted SNP, 1.02 million voted Labour, that doesn't say to me that they are dead. Also do you think the SNP are a socialist party, I think they come across as quite a right wing party?

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Original post by rammy1900
Last general election(2010) around 421,000 voted cons, around 492,000 voted SNP, 1.02 million voted Labour, that doesn't say to me that they are dead. Also do you think the SNP are a socialist party, I think they come across as quite a right wing party?


The SNP are a rather mixed up party. They're nationalist and socialist and that historically has never been a good mix.

The conservatives have maintained a consistent base in Scotland for about twenty years now.

Voting patterns are cyclic. Labour. Appears to be loosing out to the SNP. There's nothing saying that in ten years time the SNP won't loose out the the Consevatives .

A lot of the anti Tory soundbites are only kept alive by the ever decreasing number of twisted people. Do you wish to work in a coal mine?
of course they're socialist
Original post by rammy1900
Last general election(2010) around 421,000 voted cons, around 492,000 voted SNP, 1.02 million voted Labour, that doesn't say to me that they are dead.


Their support is steadily dwindling and it is now very difficult for the Conservatives to win more than one or two seats in Scotland.

Scotland just isn't on the Conservatives' radar, despite them professing to be pro-Union etc. Just listen to any Conservative voter talk about Scotland and the Scots and you soon realise why they are generally unwanted in Scotland.
Conservatives aren't dead in Scotland. They would do far better in a more proportional system here but they are still far behind Labour and the SNP. There are a number of reasons for this.

SNP are weird in that they talk like social democrats or socialists but generally their policies are actually aimed at the middle class rather than at the poorest. They may become more left-wing since they are getting lots of support from the working class.

They are also rather authoritarian.
Original post by rammy1900
Last general election(2010) around 421,000 voted cons, around 492,000 voted SNP, 1.02 million voted Labour, that doesn't say to me that they are dead. Also do you think the SNP are a socialist party, I think they come across as quite a right wing party?


SNP are generally socialist, they have to be, they are many more votes to be had by being socialist in Scotland than they are being right wing. Scotland is an historically socialist/left dominated country/region. There would be no point in the SNP being right wing there are too few votes in it, it would do there cause of independence no favours at all, they would never get there by that route. So even say if the SNP took half to cons votes by being right wing while still managing to keep there 421,000 votes it still wouldn't approach Labour, so pointless.

This time though it looks like the SNP will take a lot of previously Labour votes so these figures look to be becoming vastly different this time round. Partly due to the referendum partly due to Alex Salmond stepping down as Party leader since some saw him as a divisive aggressive figure.

Theoretically, Nationalism though is usually a right wing ideology, that of creating a nation and being patriotic. Socialism is generally more towards an more all encompassing society than focusing on national divides, though some may not want to stand in the way of a peoples wish to live independent of external or others control. Not that there aren't differences within Nationalists and Socialists groupings on this. So in some sense the SNP have a element of outlook similar to the conservatives. The conservatives however wish to dominate and rule, its all about power for them, how much land/territory you control as a country. In common sense terms it would actually benefit the Tories electorally if Scotland became independent it could give them the majority they would need. Labour on the other hand commonly no they would lose a load of Labour MP's if Scotland went independent as thing currently stand. However, if they lose all or most of their MP's anyway to the SNP with little sign that things would change back then perhaps they might as well let Scotland go independent.
Original post by The_Mighty_Bush
There are a number of reasons for this.



The principal one has been lack of talent on the Scottish political scene.

Forsyth was the last credible Tory politician on the Scottish political scene until Ruth Davidson came along. McLetchie and Goldie wouldn't have been recognised in an identity parade or by the doorman at Conservative Central Office.

Michael Gove now has a UK wide post but despite being the senior Tory Scot in the government rarely appears there.

If Cameron wins and has any sense, he should make Davidson a Baroness and Scottish Secretary as well as leading the Tories in the Scottish Parliament
(edited 8 years ago)
An interesting articke about the (lack of) socialist attitudes in the SNP.

http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/2015/04/if-you-think-snp-are-left-wing-force-think-again
Reply 8
Original post by rammy1900
Last general election(2010) around 421,000 voted cons, around 492,000 voted SNP, 1.02 million voted Labour, that doesn't say to me that they are dead.


No, the Conservatives are not dead in Scotland, but they're doing a fairly job of attracting new supporters. Their support is holding up better than Labour's and certainly better than the Lib Dems.

They've only got one MP because they're fairly well spread, whereas the Lib Dems have 11 in Scotland with a fairly similar vote share because they're a geographically narrow party, concentrated in the rural highlands and borders, and a couple of fashionable suburbs like Edinburgh West.

Also do you think the SNP are a socialist party, I think they come across as quite a right wing party?


The SNP aren't particularly committed to anything other than Scottish nationalism. They'll do things that promote that cause and, if they think it's easier to sell left-wing policies, they'll adopt them.
I think that you are all missing the point about the SNP.

They have united scotland. They want to do what's best for us. They have shown that we don't have to be a whipped dog in the corner but we can have a voice. That's why the SNP is getting picked at from people down south because they don't like the fact that we could decide on something important despit being told we were wanted and were important in September. It's time to make your mind up either you want to treat scotland as a equal or you want rid of us.
Original post by Ecksalmond
I think that you are all missing the point about the SNP.

They have united scotland. They want to do what's best for us. They have shown that we don't have to be a whipped dog in the corner but we can have a voice. That's why the SNP is getting picked at from people down south because they don't like the fact that we could decide on something important despit being told we were wanted and were important in September. It's time to make your mind up either you want to treat scotland as a equal or you want rid of us.

Scotland is not some uniform group but rather is a collection of 5 million individuals. I'm a Scot and I think that what the SNP want to do will not be good for Scotland.

Is authoritarianism good for Scotland?

I think you are too trusting of politicians. Take a more critical look.
Original post by The_Mighty_Bush
Scotland is not some uniform group but rather is a collection of 5 million individuals. I'm a Scot and I think that what the SNP want to do will not be good for Scotland.

Is authoritarianism good for Scotland?



I think you are too trusting of politicians. Take a more critical look.


I assume you mean independence.

What about the positives such as wanting to stop 100,000 kids falling into poverty in the next 5 years. Getting rid of nukes. Ending fracking, saving the NHS, free uni education, free prescriptions. All these are to benefit scotland and the people that live here. What's not to agree with
Original post by Ecksalmond
I assume you mean independence.

No, I'm talking about the SNP's authoritarian policies.

Original post by Ecksalmond
What about the positives such as wanting to stop 100,000 kids falling into poverty in the next 5 years.

How are they going to do that?

Original post by Ecksalmond
Ending fracking,

Terrible idea.

Original post by Ecksalmond
saving the NHS,

lol

They spent less on it than the Tories have. Even by your own standards that is bad.

Original post by Ecksalmond
free uni education, free prescriptions.

Dumb unaffordable policies that amount to middle class socialism.

Why should someone who leaves school and goes to work, pay taxes so that students can get their education paid for that he doesn't get?
Original post by The_Mighty_Bush
No, I'm talking about the SNP's authoritarian policies.


How are they going to do that?


Terrible idea.


lol

They spent less on it than the Tories have. Even by your own standards that is bad.


Dumb unaffordable policies that amount to middle class socialism.

Why should someone who leaves school and goes to work, pay taxes so that students can get their education paid for that he doesn't get?


Because it means his kid can get free education. The SNP are the only ones to ring fence the NHS budget also I bet the SNP Spend a higher % of there budget on the NHS than the Tories.
Original post by Ecksalmond
Because it means his kid can get free education. The SNP are the only ones to ring fence the NHS budget also I bet the SNP Spend a higher % of there budget on the NHS than the Tories.

What if he doesn't have kids? It's also a great leap of faith to think that free university places will be sustainable in my opinion when you consider the economic issues that Western Europe faces.

"NHS funding fell by 1.2% - despite being up by 4.4% in England over the same period."
Original post by The_Mighty_Bush
What if he doesn't have kids? It's also a great leap of faith to think that free university places will be sustainable in my opinion when you consider the economic issues that Western Europe faces.

"NHS funding fell by 1.2% - despite being up by 4.4% in England over the same period."


How much did Scotland's budget fall by?

It doesn't matter if they have kids or not. He could goto uni at 50 and it would be free.
Original post by Ecksalmond
I think that you are all missing the point about the SNP.

They have united scotland. They want to do what's best for us. They have shown that we don't have to be a whipped dog in the corner but we can have a voice. That's why the SNP is getting picked at from people down south because they don't like the fact that we could decide on something important despit being told we were wanted and were important in September. It's time to make your mind up either you want to treat scotland as a equal or you want rid of us.


United us by creating a divide?
Original post by Ecksalmond
Because it means his kid can get free education. The SNP are the only ones to ring fence the NHS budget also I bet the SNP Spend a higher % of there budget on the NHS than the Tories.

Is that the 'middle class kids can get a free education' whilst working class kids suffer because college funding was cut to finance university education?

Why are more working class kids going to university in England than Scotland?
Until the early 1980s the tories were quite a major party in Scotland, and they do still have quite a bit of support even among the working classes. The SNP used to be known as "the tartan tories" due to their right-leaning stance. Now they promote whatever will get them votes - currently it's being left-ish. I can't see them as a socialist party, more of a populist party.


Original post by Ecksalmond
I think that you are all missing the point about the SNP.

They have united scotland. They want to do what's best for us. They have shown that we don't have to be a whipped dog in the corner but we can have a voice. That's why the SNP is getting picked at from people down south because they don't like the fact that we could decide on something important despit being told we were wanted and were important in September. It's time to make your mind up either you want to treat scotland as a equal or you want rid of us.


I'd say they've done the exact opposite. Theres definetly a split appearing between the "45-ers" and the rest of the country.
(edited 8 years ago)
Original post by arson_fire

I'd say they've done the exact opposite. Theres definetly a split appearing between the "45-ers" and the rest of the country.


Do you have any evidence of this or is it purely conjecture?

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