The Student Room Group

Quadratic Number Rings



For c, I got the irreducible elements are: 1+22,1+32,1+421+2\sqrt{2},1+3\sqrt{2},1+4\sqrt{2}

How do you do part d? I've only seen examples of finding irreducible factorisations after I've found the greatest common divisor of two elements, so I don't really know how to so it from scratch.
Reply 1
Suppose 4+2=αβ4 + \sqrt{2} = \alpha \beta for irred. α,β\alpha, \beta then by the multiplicativity of the norm

N(4+2)=14=N(α)N(β)N(4+\sqrt{2}) = 14 = N(\alpha)N(\beta)

So wlog N(α)=14N(\alpha) = 14 and N(β)=1N(\beta) = 1 or N(α)=7N(\alpha) = 7 and N(β)=2N(\beta) = 2

For γ=a+b2\gamma = a + b\sqrt{2}, N(γ)=a22b2=1N(\gamma) = a^2 -2b^2 = 1 has no solutions for a,bZa,b \in \mathbb{Z} (consider reduction by mod 4)

So in fact we must have N(α)=7N(\alpha) = 7 and N(β)=2N(\beta) = 2. So you want to find elements α,β\alpha, \beta with norms 7, 2 respectively (which automatically implies they're irreducible, why?) and the element of norm 7 is one you've already seen and there's an obvious element of norm 2.
Reply 2
Original post by Noble.
Suppose 4+2=αβ4 + \sqrt{2} = \alpha \beta for irred. α,β\alpha, \beta then by the multiplicativity of the norm

N(4+2)=14=N(α)N(β)N(4+\sqrt{2}) = 14 = N(\alpha)N(\beta)

So wlog N(α)=14N(\alpha) = 14 and N(β)=1N(\beta) = 1 or N(α)=7N(\alpha) = 7 and N(β)=2N(\beta) = 2

For γ=a+b2\gamma = a + b\sqrt{2}, N(γ)=a22b2=1N(\gamma) = a^2 -2b^2 = 1 has no solutions for a,bZa,b \in \mathbb{Z} (consider reduction by mod 4)

So in fact we must have N(α)=7N(\alpha) = 7 and N(β)=2N(\beta) = 2. So you want to find elements α,β\alpha, \beta with norms 7, 2 respectively (which automatically implies they're irreducible, why?) and the element of norm 7 is one you've already seen and there's an obvious element of norm 2.


Thank you so much for this!!

One question though, for: γ=a+b2\gamma = a + b\sqrt{2}, N(γ)=a22b2=1N(\gamma) = a^2 -2b^2 = 1, does this not have solution a=1, b=0?
Original post by rayquaza17
Thank you so much for this!!

One question though, for: γ=a+b2\gamma = a + b\sqrt{2}, N(γ)=a22b2=1N(\gamma) = a^2 -2b^2 = 1, does this not have solution a=1, b=0?

You're right, and indeed there are infinitely many a,ba, b solutions. The reasoning in this case should be "elements of norm 1 are invertible, and invertible things are by definition not irreducible". Compare the statement that in the integers, 1 is not prime (nor is it composite).
Reply 4
Original post by Smaug123
You're right, and indeed there are infinitely many a,ba, b solutions. The reasoning in this case should be "elements of norm 1 are invertible, and invertible things are by definition not irreducible". Compare the statement that in the integers, 1 is not prime (nor is it composite).


Oh yeah I forgot about that!
Thank you!!
a2 + b2 = c2
Reply 6
How would I do it for 11121-11\sqrt{-2} in Z2\mathbb{Z}{\sqrt{-2}}?

Following the same steps Noble did:
Suppose 1112=ab1-11\sqrt{-2}=ab for irreducible a,b.
N(1112)=243=N(a)N(b)N(1-11\sqrt{-2})=243=N(a)N(b)

Then N(a),N(b) could be (wlog):
N(a)=1, N(b)=243
N(a)=3, N(b)=81
N(a)=9, N(b)=27

Obviously the first case wouldn't work since then a would not be irreducible. But in the other two cases, a and b aren't both prime, so we can't say they are irreducible?

The first part of this question was to prove that the norm is 1 iff the element is invertible; I haven't been given any other elements of the ring to make it easy like the last time.
Original post by rayquaza17
How would I do it for 11121-11\sqrt{-2} in Z2\mathbb{Z}{\sqrt{-2}}?

Following the same steps Noble did:
Suppose 1112=ab1-11\sqrt{-2}=ab for irreducible a,b.
N(1112)=243=N(a)N(b)N(1-11\sqrt{-2})=243=N(a)N(b)

Then N(a),N(b) could be (wlog):
N(a)=1, N(b)=243
N(a)=3, N(b)=81
N(a)=9, N(b)=27

Obviously the first case wouldn't work since then a would not be irreducible. But in the other two cases, a and b aren't both prime, so we can't say they are irreducible?

The first part of this question was to prove that the norm is 1 iff the element is invertible; I haven't been given any other elements of the ring to make it easy like the last time.


Norms are of the form a2+2b2a^2 + 2 b^2. Could that ever be 3? (When?) Could it ever be 9? (When?)

Imaginary quadratic fields are a bit easier than real ones for this reason: it's easy to solve a2+2b2=3a^2+2b^2 = 3 because a,ba, b must be 3\leq \sqrt{3}. (The corresponding real quadratic ring, Z[2]\mathbb{Z}[\sqrt{2}], doesn't contain an obvious algorithm for determining when a22b2=3a^2 - 2b^2 = 3, although it turns out that continued fractions can be used for that, along with some theorems from algebraic number theory.)
Reply 8

Spoiler

In case everyone ever reads this, I made a mistake here:

I didn't consider the fact that 525-\sqrt{-2} could be divisible by one of the elements of norm 3 that I have already used.

The irreducible factorisation is: 1112=(1+2)3(12)21-11\sqrt{-2}=(1+\sqrt{-2})^3(-1-\sqrt{-2})^2
(edited 8 years ago)
Original post by rayquaza17

Then I want to do the same thing to 525-\sqrt{-2}. But then the only option for the norms is 3 and 9. I'm only left with a and b (from the first line) having different signs to each other. But then the method doesn't seem to work from here. Is this because 525-\sqrt{-2} is irreducible, or because I have made a mistake in my logic? (The calculations should be right, I've triple checked them lol)

Assuming your calculations are correct:

Norm of 27 can be made only from 3x9. You've found all the things of norm 3 (namely ±(1±2)\pm (1 \pm \sqrt{-2})): there are only two of them, up to multiplication by -1. You've presumably tried dividing by both of them, and found that neither of them comes out as elements of Z[2]\mathbb{Z}[\sqrt{-2}]. That shows you that in fact there is no factorisation as norm-3 times norm-9, and hence that 525-\sqrt{2} is irreducible.
Original post by Smaug123
Assuming your calculations are correct:

Norm of 27 can be made only from 3x9. You've found all the things of norm 3 (namely ±(1±2)\pm (1 \pm \sqrt{-2})): there are only two of them, up to multiplication by -1. You've presumably tried dividing by both of them, and found that neither of them comes out as elements of Z[2]\mathbb{Z}[\sqrt{-2}]. That shows you that in fact there is no factorisation as norm-3 times norm-9, and hence that 525-\sqrt{2} is irreducible.


Thank you! 😀😀


Posted from TSR Mobile
Original post by rayquaza17
Thank you!

No problem :smile: I'm procrastinating as much as anyone else!
Original post by Smaug123
No problem :smile: I'm procrastinating as much as anyone else!


I'm really sorry to bother you again, but do you know how to prove this:
Screen Shot 2015-05-19 at 20.12.54.png
I can prove by counterexample because in Z[3]\mathbb Z[\sqrt{-3}] we have: 4=22=(1+3)(13)4=2 \cdot 2=(1+\sqrt{-3})(1-\sqrt{-3})
But I get the feeling this isn't what the lecturer is after lol.


Edit: Ok I know how to do it now. You basically have to consider 2|1+e.
Sorry for all of the questions. The exam is at 9:30am tomorrow, so I won't be pestering you again with questions about this.
(edited 8 years ago)
Original post by rayquaza17
I'm really sorry to bother you again, but do you know how to prove this:
Screen Shot 2015-05-19 at 20.12.54.png
I can prove by counterexample because in Z[3]\mathbb Z[\sqrt{-3}] we have: 4=22=(1+3)(13)4=2 \cdot 2=(1+\sqrt{-3})(1-\sqrt{-3})
But I get the feeling this isn't what the lecturer is after lol.


Edit: Ok I know how to do it now. You basically have to consider 2|1+e.
Sorry for all of the questions. The exam is at 9:30am tomorrow, so I won't be pestering you again with questions about this.


In fact it does hold for e=163, if you first show that the class number of sqrt(-163) is 1. (And similarly for a few smaller e, but none larger.)
Original post by Smaug123
In fact it does hold for e=163, if you first show that the class number of sqrt(-163) is 1. (And similarly for a few smaller e, but none larger.)


Whaaaat? So what I have to prove is wrong???

Ok so I looked at class number on Wikipedia and it says that Z[sqrt(-3)] should have unique factorisation, but my example above shows it doesn't????


Posted from TSR Mobile
(edited 8 years ago)
Original post by rayquaza17
Whaaaat? So what I have to prove is wrong???

Ok so I looked at class number on Wikipedia and it says that Z[sqrt(-3)] should have unique factorisation, but my example above shows it doesn't????


Posted from TSR Mobile


Your factorisation is correct: Z[sqrt(-3)] is not a UFD. Sorry, I misled you: it's not enough for the class number of Q(3)\mathbb{Q}(\sqrt{-3}) to be 1 in this case, because the ring of integers of Q(3)\mathbb{Q}(\sqrt{-3}) is not Z[3]\mathbb{Z}[\sqrt{-3}] but Z[1+32]\mathbb{Z}[\frac{1+\sqrt{-3}}{2}].

EDIT: I think the point of the question is "show that the proof doesn't instantly generalise". To show that the class number is 1 is actually quite a bit of work.
(edited 8 years ago)
Original post by rayquaza17
Whaaaat? So what I have to prove is wrong???

Ok so I looked at class number on Wikipedia and it says that Z[sqrt(-3)] should have unique factorisation, but my example above shows it doesn't????


My reply above is updated: I was talking something close to nonsense. Your factorisation is correct, and Z[sqrt(-3)] is not a UFD. This is because -3 is 1 mod 4, so the ring of integers of Q(sqrt(-3)) is not Z(sqrt(-3)) after all.
Original post by Smaug123
My reply above is updated: I was talking something close to nonsense. Your factorisation is correct, and Z[sqrt(-3)] is not a UFD. This is because -3 is 1 mod 4, so the ring of integers of Q(sqrt(-3)) is not Z(sqrt(-3)) after all.


Thank god.
Thanks again for all of the help. :smile:
Good luck in your exams btw (not that you need it though!)
(edited 8 years ago)
Original post by rayquaza17
Thank god.
Thanks again for all of the help. :smile:
Good luck in your exams btw (not that you need it though!)


No problem :smile: same to you. I really do - the variance of questions I can answer in the exam is worryingly high, so it's possible that they'll put all the questions I can't answer into these exams…

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