Alex Salmond accused of staggering hypocrisy on EU referendum
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3092634/Salmond-accused-staggering-hypocrisy-admitting-work-Tories-Britain-EU.html
Alex Salmond was last night accused of ‘staggering hypocrisy’ after admitting he would stand alongside the Tories to keep Britain in the EU – despite blasting Labour for joining forces with David Cameron to save the UK.
The former First Minister pleaded for George Osborne to avoid leading the pro-EU campaign north of the Border, but when asked directly if he would share a platform with the Chancellor, replied: ‘I mean, listen, I share platforms with everybody except fascists and non-democrats.’
The former First Minister pleaded for George Osborne to avoid leading the pro-EU campaign north of the Border, but when asked directly if he would share a platform with the Chancellor, replied: ‘I mean, listen, I share platforms with everybody except fascists and non-democrats.’
What's even more hypocritical is that an awful lot of the arguments he's going to be making for staying in the EU are likely to be very similar to those that the Better Together campaign made for staying in the UK.
The trouble with nationalism is that it seems to make people turn off that rational, logical portion of their brains and swallow up all sorts of nonsense. A lot of nats supporting staying in the EU don't even know why they support such a thing, only that they're told to, and will be blissfully unaware that they're making the exact same arguments that they derided during the independence referendum.
The trouble with nationalism is that it seems to make people turn off that rational, logical portion of their brains and swallow up all sorts of nonsense. A lot of nats supporting staying in the EU don't even know why they support such a thing, only that they're told to, and will be blissfully unaware that they're making the exact same arguments that they derided during the independence referendum.
Not to mention campaigning with UKIP last week...
...and apparently being willing to work with Tory rebels on the Human Rights Act.
The whole line was a blatant act of hypocrisy. But now, it seems, SNP supporters are so invested in their party that it can do no wrong.
It was the same when they were criticising various scandals in other parties, with an apparent blind-spot to their own.
Alex Salmond blatantly lying about having EU legal advice, then spending thousands going to court to keep quiet that it didn't exist.
The SNP administration making up hugely inflated figures for Scotland's future oil revenues, then accusing anyone who questioned them of 'scaremongering'.
Salmond's head of communications sending emails making up smears about a women who is a full time carer to her disabled child to the press, after she dared to speak at a Better Together event.
Joan McAlpine giving hundreds of pounds of public money to the wife of a man she had had an affair with for photographs that were apparently useless.
What about when one of their MSPs - Bill Walker - went to prison for beating several former partners. His violence was well known years before and he had not contested three divorce actions that cited physical abuse to his former wives and s a stepdaughter. Nicola Sturgeon's office had been informed of this several years previously and been shown the documents relating to it. She apologised for not doing anything about them, and that was apparently the matter closed.
The SNP have been mired in scandals in recent years, yet apparently these are to be simply waved away, while all the other parties are attacked mercilessly.
...and apparently being willing to work with Tory rebels on the Human Rights Act.
The whole line was a blatant act of hypocrisy. But now, it seems, SNP supporters are so invested in their party that it can do no wrong.
It was the same when they were criticising various scandals in other parties, with an apparent blind-spot to their own.
Alex Salmond blatantly lying about having EU legal advice, then spending thousands going to court to keep quiet that it didn't exist.
The SNP administration making up hugely inflated figures for Scotland's future oil revenues, then accusing anyone who questioned them of 'scaremongering'.
Salmond's head of communications sending emails making up smears about a women who is a full time carer to her disabled child to the press, after she dared to speak at a Better Together event.
Joan McAlpine giving hundreds of pounds of public money to the wife of a man she had had an affair with for photographs that were apparently useless.
What about when one of their MSPs - Bill Walker - went to prison for beating several former partners. His violence was well known years before and he had not contested three divorce actions that cited physical abuse to his former wives and s a stepdaughter. Nicola Sturgeon's office had been informed of this several years previously and been shown the documents relating to it. She apologised for not doing anything about them, and that was apparently the matter closed.
The SNP have been mired in scandals in recent years, yet apparently these are to be simply waved away, while all the other parties are attacked mercilessly.
Original post by Smack
What's even more hypocritical is that an awful lot of the arguments he's going to be making for staying in the EU are likely to be very similar to those that the Better Together campaign made for staying in the UK.
The trouble with nationalism is that it seems to make people turn off that rational, logical portion of their brains and swallow up all sorts of nonsense. A lot of nats supporting staying in the EU don't even know why they support such a thing, only that they're told to, and will be blissfully unaware that they're making the exact same arguments that they derided during the independence referendum.
The trouble with nationalism is that it seems to make people turn off that rational, logical portion of their brains and swallow up all sorts of nonsense. A lot of nats supporting staying in the EU don't even know why they support such a thing, only that they're told to, and will be blissfully unaware that they're making the exact same arguments that they derided during the independence referendum.
The SNP want to rid themselves of the British union of 60 million on the argument Scotland voice is not heard loud enough. Yet happy to join the European Union of 500 million.
The SNP want to rid themselves of the Pound on the argument London is too elite and remote. Yet want to join the Euro managed by elites in Brussels.
The SNP want to rid themselves of the British political union on the argument they vote non-Tory but get Tory in the UK parliament. Yet happy to vote non-Tory but get Christian Conservatives in the EU Parliament.
The SNP want to rid themselves of British nuclear weapons on the argument they do not wish to have them used in their name by a government they have a democratic say on. Yet happy to join NATO and let the USA or French government use nuclear weapons in their name.
(edited 8 years ago)
The SNP position has always been to stay in the EU. If Scotland split from the UK SNP still want Scotland to be in the EU. If the UK voted to leave the EU there is grounds for another Scottish referendum in that if Scotland wants to stay in the EU why should they be dragged out by the rest of the UK? There isn't anything hypocritical about it. Although having thought about it you can argue labour only sided with the Tories to stay together since they both agree scotland should stay with the UK. Meh, it's politics, they are all lieing manipulative turds. But why are the SNP siding with tehj Tories? Labour also want to stay in. In fact it will just be UKIP and Tory backbenches that want to leave.
also Green and Plaid....
It's a pro electoral reform alliance, something that would put SNP at a disadvantage, that puts them well above con and labour in that regard. I don't like UKIP but I am happy to support their stance on electoral reform. God forbid different parties work together where there is common ground. It's called democracy.
What planet are you living on? They have been attacked massively.
Original post by L i b
Not to mention campaigning with UKIP last week...
also Green and Plaid....
It's a pro electoral reform alliance, something that would put SNP at a disadvantage, that puts them well above con and labour in that regard. I don't like UKIP but I am happy to support their stance on electoral reform. God forbid different parties work together where there is common ground. It's called democracy.
Original post by L i b
The SNP have been mired in scandals in recent years, yet apparently these are to be simply waved away, while all the other parties are attacked mercilessly.
The SNP have been mired in scandals in recent years, yet apparently these are to be simply waved away, while all the other parties are attacked mercilessly.
What planet are you living on? They have been attacked massively.
(edited 8 years ago)
Here's all the juicy gossip about Alex doing a deal with the Tory....
http://www.thecourier.co.uk/news/politics/uk-government-s-fury-at-alex-salmond-suggestion-david-mundell-may-have-known-about-leaked-memo-1.878045
http://www.thecourier.co.uk/news/politics/uk-government-s-fury-at-alex-salmond-suggestion-david-mundell-may-have-known-about-leaked-memo-1.878045
Original post by ChaoticButterfly
If the UK voted to leave the EU there is grounds for another Scottish referendum in that if Scotland wants to stay in the EU why should they be dragged out by the rest of the UK?
The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland is a single sovereign state with a majority representative democracy. 55% of people in Scotland voted to remain part of it knowing full well of the possibility of a in/out EU referendum. This was not a secret. If the will the majority with in Scotland must be respected on Scottish issues then the will of the majority in the UK must be respected on British issues.
A part of being in a majority democracy using referendum is about ultimately respecting the will of the 51+ %. Not bitching because 99% don't agree. I am a Londoner but if 60% of Londoners vote to stay in the EU but the 60% of British people want to leave I will respect the outcome.
(edited 8 years ago)
Original post by Reformed2010
A part of being in a majority democracy using referendum is about ultimately respecting the will of the 51+ %. Not bitching because 99% don't agree. I am a Londoner but if 60% of Londoners vote to stay in the EU but the 60% of British people want to leave I will respect the outcome.
A part of being in a majority democracy using referendum is about ultimately respecting the will of the 51+ %. Not bitching because 99% don't agree. I am a Londoner but if 60% of Londoners vote to stay in the EU but the 60% of British people want to leave I will respect the outcome.
Good for you.
Original post by ChaoticButterfly
Which is a fundamentally silly stance from a political and economic perspective, but we'll gloss over that.
If the UK voted to leave the EU there is grounds for another Scottish referendum
Now, let's dispel this right away: there are no "grounds" for a referendum in the way that there are "grounds" for divorce. The only way a Scottish independence referendum can be held is entirely on the basis of legislation brought forward by the UK Parliament.
The UK Parliament did not have to grant the last one, and it certainly does not have to grant any single one in the future. Scotland stands virtually unique among the of regions, territories and subnational entities of the world in having had its status within the state it dwells affirmed and secured by the choice of its people.
Now, the referendum was rightly stated by both sides to be a once-in-a-generation event at the very most. There are no reasonable circumstances where that should be ignored.
Moreover, the UK Government and the British people have every right to take the UK out of the EU. That is democratic. We signed up to a unitary state, the United Kingdom - you cannot simply opt out because you disagree with something the government does.
It's a pro electoral reform alliance, something that would put SNP at a disadvantage, that puts them well above con and labour in that regard. I don't like UKIP but I am happy to support their stance on electoral reform. God forbid different parties work together where there is common ground. It's called democracy.
Indeed it is. I do not have a problem with that, and never have. The only people who lied - and I don't use that word lightly - about having a problem with this, and used it to stoke up all sort of vileness - were the leaders of the Scottish National Party.
It was a shocking thing to do at the time, and now - by working with the self-same parties they attacked Labour for working with - they have shown themselves to be hypocrites. There's not really much of a counterargument here: it's absolutely brazen and shameless.
Original post by ChaoticButterfly
Good for you.
You know what - good for him indeed. Democracy is a precious thing and we have to fight to defend it. We cannot let the concept of democracy fall to competing subnational interests and we cannot allow democratic nation-states to be held to ransom by the minorities within them.
It is not a sustainable model. If we were to let such a process run to its illogical conclusion without interruption, the idea of democracy dies. In reality, what we have is an ideology that will eventually end in conflict.
What, pray tell, happens if Shetland sees its advantage outside an independent Scotland? Is it allowed to go its own way? What about Aberdeen - is it denied a referendum on separation in the same way the SNP tried to prevent its council from taking a position on the 2014 referendum outcome? What do you say to people who have been fed two competing narratives - that democracy is valuable, yet they can opt-out when they please?
In the end, there is a no answer to that. Democracy dies. Sure, this is a hypothetical, but it sure as hell exposes a weakness in the principle that you seem to be advocating.
Original post by ChaoticButterfly
Good for you.
Original post by L i b
You know what - good for him indeed. Democracy is a precious thing and we have to fight to defend it. We cannot let the concept of democracy fall to competing subnational interests and we cannot allow democratic nation-states to be held to ransom by the minorities within them.
It is not a sustainable model. If we were to let such a process run to its illogical conclusion without interruption, the idea of democracy dies. In reality, what we have is an ideology that will eventually end in conflict.
What, pray tell, happens if Shetland sees its advantage outside an independent Scotland? Is it allowed to go its own way? What about Aberdeen - is it denied a referendum on separation in the same way the SNP tried to prevent its council from taking a position on the 2014 referendum outcome? What do you say to people who have been fed two competing narratives - that democracy is valuable, yet they can opt-out when they please?
In the end, there is a no answer to that. Democracy dies. Sure, this is a hypothetical, but it sure as hell exposes a weakness in the principle that you seem to be advocating.
It is not a sustainable model. If we were to let such a process run to its illogical conclusion without interruption, the idea of democracy dies. In reality, what we have is an ideology that will eventually end in conflict.
What, pray tell, happens if Shetland sees its advantage outside an independent Scotland? Is it allowed to go its own way? What about Aberdeen - is it denied a referendum on separation in the same way the SNP tried to prevent its council from taking a position on the 2014 referendum outcome? What do you say to people who have been fed two competing narratives - that democracy is valuable, yet they can opt-out when they please?
In the end, there is a no answer to that. Democracy dies. Sure, this is a hypothetical, but it sure as hell exposes a weakness in the principle that you seem to be advocating.
(edited 8 years ago)
Original post by ChaoticButterfly
The SNP position has always been to stay in the EU. If Scotland split from the UK SNP still want Scotland to be in the EU. If the UK voted to leave the EU there is grounds for another Scottish referendum in that if Scotland wants to stay in the EU why should they be dragged out by the rest of the UK? There isn't anything hypocritical about it. Although having thought about it you can argue labour only sided with the Tories to stay together since they both agree scotland should stay with the UK. Meh, it's politics, they are all lieing manipulative turds. But why are the SNP siding with tehj Tories? Labour also want to stay in. In fact it will just be UKIP and Tory backbenches that want to leave.
also Green and Plaid....
It's a pro electoral reform alliance, something that would put SNP at a disadvantage, that puts them well above con and labour in that regard. I don't like UKIP but I am happy to support their stance on electoral reform. God forbid different parties work together where there is common ground. It's called democracy.
What planet are you living on? They have been attacked massively.
also Green and Plaid....
It's a pro electoral reform alliance, something that would put SNP at a disadvantage, that puts them well above con and labour in that regard. I don't like UKIP but I am happy to support their stance on electoral reform. God forbid different parties work together where there is common ground. It's called democracy.
What planet are you living on? They have been attacked massively.
The SNP have only recently become pro EU my dear. They've historically been anti EU, anti NATO, anti €.
Original post by MatureStudent36
The SNP have only recently become pro EU my dear. They've historically been anti EU, anti NATO, anti €.
Well they have been pro EU in the last few years. When the referendum happened they were pro EU. Deary.
Original post by L i b
Not to mention campaigning with UKIP last week...
...and apparently being willing to work with Tory rebels on the Human Rights Act.
The whole line was a blatant act of hypocrisy. But now, it seems, SNP supporters are so invested in their party that it can do no wrong.
It was the same when they were criticising various scandals in other parties, with an apparent blind-spot to their own.
Alex Salmond blatantly lying about having EU legal advice, then spending thousands going to court to keep quiet that it didn't exist.
The SNP administration making up hugely inflated figures for Scotland's future oil revenues, then accusing anyone who questioned them of 'scaremongering'.
Salmond's head of communications sending emails making up smears about a women who is a full time carer to her disabled child to the press, after she dared to speak at a Better Together event.
Joan McAlpine giving hundreds of pounds of public money to the wife of a man she had had an affair with for photographs that were apparently useless.
What about when one of their MSPs - Bill Walker - went to prison for beating several former partners. His violence was well known years before and he had not contested three divorce actions that cited physical abuse to his former wives and s a stepdaughter. Nicola Sturgeon's office had been informed of this several years previously and been shown the documents relating to it. She apologised for not doing anything about them, and that was apparently the matter closed.
The SNP have been mired in scandals in recent years, yet apparently these are to be simply waved away, while all the other parties are attacked mercilessly.
...and apparently being willing to work with Tory rebels on the Human Rights Act.
The whole line was a blatant act of hypocrisy. But now, it seems, SNP supporters are so invested in their party that it can do no wrong.
It was the same when they were criticising various scandals in other parties, with an apparent blind-spot to their own.
Alex Salmond blatantly lying about having EU legal advice, then spending thousands going to court to keep quiet that it didn't exist.
The SNP administration making up hugely inflated figures for Scotland's future oil revenues, then accusing anyone who questioned them of 'scaremongering'.
Salmond's head of communications sending emails making up smears about a women who is a full time carer to her disabled child to the press, after she dared to speak at a Better Together event.
Joan McAlpine giving hundreds of pounds of public money to the wife of a man she had had an affair with for photographs that were apparently useless.
What about when one of their MSPs - Bill Walker - went to prison for beating several former partners. His violence was well known years before and he had not contested three divorce actions that cited physical abuse to his former wives and s a stepdaughter. Nicola Sturgeon's office had been informed of this several years previously and been shown the documents relating to it. She apologised for not doing anything about them, and that was apparently the matter closed.
The SNP have been mired in scandals in recent years, yet apparently these are to be simply waved away, while all the other parties are attacked mercilessly.
I just want to point out that thats all the parties bar Labour and the Conservatives- So those that would feel better if we had PR.
I'm not entirely comfortable with it either but there seems to be a growing consensus amongst smaller parties regardless of whatg beliefs they hold that they should work together to bring in PR.
Original post by L i b
The SNP have been mired in scandals in recent years, yet apparently these are to be simply waved away, while all the other parties are attacked mercilessly.
The SNP have been mired in scandals in recent years, yet apparently these are to be simply waved away, while all the other parties are attacked mercilessly.
Labour mainly, and UKIP. Not the Tories.
Original post by ChaoticButterfly
Well they have been pro EU in the last few years. When the referendum happened they were pro EU. Deary.
Very dreary following a populist nationalist party that doesn't cost anything.
Why are more poorer kids going to uni in England with tuition fees than Scotland?
Why hasn't investment in NHS Scotland matches that of NHS England and Wales even though the money has been made available?
Now onto the European Convention on Human Rights.
According to the recently reshuffled-out ex-Justice Secretary Kenny MacAskill, the Scottish Government played politics on prisoner votes for the sake of headlines in the newspapers.
"Shamefully, the Scottish Government has so far refused to adhere to the spirit and the judgements of the European Courts.
"Initially it hid behind the franchise being reserved to Westminster but did indicate that it did not support its extension to prisoners.
"That was compounded by replicating the Westminster line in the franchise for the referendum. Votes were granted for 16 and 17-year-olds but not prisoners.
"In that act I am as complicit as any as the former justice secretary. It was the wrong thing done, albeit for the right reasons.
"It was to avoid any needless distractions in the run-up to the referendum, to deny the right-wing press lurid headlines that could tarnish the bigger picture. But the referendum is behind us and the Tory press have failed to stop us."
Shameful, yet entirely ignored by their supporters. Add this to his horrendous speech on the abolition of corroboration, where he accused opposition parties of being part of a "Better Together" conspiracy to see fewer rapists in jail and you really have a man who was unfit to hold office under a parish council, never mind the devolved government of a country.
What's more though, the whole Scottish Government cabal were doing exactly the same.
According to the recently reshuffled-out ex-Justice Secretary Kenny MacAskill, the Scottish Government played politics on prisoner votes for the sake of headlines in the newspapers.
"Shamefully, the Scottish Government has so far refused to adhere to the spirit and the judgements of the European Courts.
"Initially it hid behind the franchise being reserved to Westminster but did indicate that it did not support its extension to prisoners.
"That was compounded by replicating the Westminster line in the franchise for the referendum. Votes were granted for 16 and 17-year-olds but not prisoners.
"In that act I am as complicit as any as the former justice secretary. It was the wrong thing done, albeit for the right reasons.
"It was to avoid any needless distractions in the run-up to the referendum, to deny the right-wing press lurid headlines that could tarnish the bigger picture. But the referendum is behind us and the Tory press have failed to stop us."
Shameful, yet entirely ignored by their supporters. Add this to his horrendous speech on the abolition of corroboration, where he accused opposition parties of being part of a "Better Together" conspiracy to see fewer rapists in jail and you really have a man who was unfit to hold office under a parish council, never mind the devolved government of a country.
What's more though, the whole Scottish Government cabal were doing exactly the same.
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