The Student Room Group

Hannah's Sweets

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Original post by Stevo F
Took me 30 seconds. To those people saying grade boundaries should be lowered, it's all done automatically so a certain number of people get a set grade. It's not like they're going to artificially lower it because some people didn't like one of the questions :facepalm:


TBH it wasn't that hard of an exam, people in my year are just exaggerating for attention. The grade boundaries won't be lowered but it probably will be low anyway.:smile:
Reply 41
If a question like this can make the news then I hope the exam boards are ready for the outcry when students take the new GCSE in 2017.

For anyone interested, read through the 3 specimen papers from p.101 of this document.

Hannah's sweets will look easy compared to e.g. Q15 on Paper 3.
Reply 42
Took A Level maths myself, still found his question very difficult. The wording of it isn't particularly clear for what they're trying to get you to calculate.

But then equally I appreciate that they need to have some very tough questions in there just to separate out the ultra high achievers.
Original post by notnek
Sweets are taken without replacement so it becomes conditional.

The probability that Hannah takes an orange sweet on the second pick is dependent on whether she takes/doesn't take an orange sweet on the first pick.

Should have RTQ properly :facepalm2:.
Original post by notnek
If a question like this can make the news then I hope the exam boards are ready for the outcry when students take the new GCSE in 2017.

For anyone interested, read through the 3 specimen papers from p.101 of this document.

Hannah's sweets will look easy compared to e.g. Q15 on Paper 3.

The decimal one?
Original post by Reue
Took A Level maths myself, still found his question very difficult. The wording of it isn't particularly clear for what they're trying to get you to calculate.

But then equally I appreciate that they need to have some very tough questions in there just to separate out the ultra high achievers.

:yy:
Reply 44
Original post by keromedic

The decimal one?

Yes. Parts b) and c) are nasty.
Given;
Orange sweets = 6
Total Sweets = n
Probability of 2 orange sweets in both draws, p(both draw organge) = 1/3


First find the probability of finding orange sweet in first draw, p(O) = 6/n

Remaining orange sweet = 5
Remaining total sweets = n-1

Then the prabability of finding second orange sweet in second draw, p(second orange) = 5/(n-1)

Therefor probability of finding orange sweets in both draw is,p(both draw orange) = p(o) * p (second orange)
1/3 = 6/n * 5/ (n-1)
1/3 = 30 / (n^2 - n)
Multiply both sides by the denominator of left side (i.e 3) 1 = 30*3 / (n^2 - n)
Multiply both sides by the denominator of right side (i.e n^2 - n) n^2 - n = 90
Subtract the constant that is on right side (i.e 90) n^2 - n - 90 = 0
Original post by notnek
Yes. Parts b) and c) are nasty.


Well there's 10^180 in the denominator so the rest follows. I'm not sure what the MS is looking for though.

Edit: I see.

So many words for part 3 :nothing:. Well he hasn't shown it to be true because he hasn't actually found the reciprocal and he hasn't verified that 3 is the least value for n. It could be 2 or 1.

Edit: Cool. I can't tell whether someone at GCSE level would find it hard.
(edited 8 years ago)
I thought questions like the one in the OP were standard questions for GCSE maths...
(edited 8 years ago)
Reply 48
Original post by keromedic

So many words for part 3 :nothing:. Well he hasn't shown it to be true because he hasn't actually found the reciprocal and he hasn't verified that 3 is the least value for n. It could be 2 or 1.

Edit: Cool. I can't tell whether someone at GCSE level would find it hard.

I'm pretty sure most would. I find the theorem and the stuff before it are badly written. I would have written all the information in the theorem in italics.

I also think most students would struggle to see what to do in part b).
Reply 49
Can you not simply factorise the equation?

N^2-n-90 = (n-10)(n+9)

So n must be 10, then show that 6/10 x 5/9 = 1/3??
Original post by Ben_302
Can you not simply factorise the equation?

N^2-n-90 = (n-10)(n+9)

So n must be 10, then show that 6/10 x 5/9 = 1/3??


Omg, I don't think anyone thought of that lol. But it does say prove, which means algebraically prove by rearranging a created equation. You might not get the marks for that method:smile:
Reply 51
Is the full paper available anywhere online or is it too soon?
Original post by Ben_302
Can you not simply factorise the equation?

N^2-n-90 = (n-10)(n+9)

So n must be 10, then show that 6/10 x 5/9 = 1/3??


while you are correct you are not answering the question, it wants you to prove the equation n^2-n-90=0 not find out what n is or prove the probability of two orange sweets to be 1/3.
Original post by notnek
I'm pretty sure most would. I find the theorem and the stuff before it are badly written. I would have written all the information in the theorem in italics.

I also think most students would struggle to see what to do in part b).


With perhaps least being in bold.

I think think I got a bit stressed when I first glanced at the problem because I thought it was going to involve some modular arithmetic.

I think a lot of the problems with these hard questions is perceived difficulty.
(edited 8 years ago)
Reply 54
Original post by Cocomuncher
while you are correct you are not answering the question, it wants you to prove the equation n^2-n-90=0 not find out what n is or prove the probability of two orange sweets to be 1/3.


It is proving it, just in the reverse order. If n^2-n-90 didn't equal zero then this method wouldn't work.
Reply 55
Original post by Ben_302
Can you not simply factorise the equation?

N^2-n-90 = (n-10)(n+9)

So n must be 10, then show that 6/10 x 5/9 = 1/3??

If you can show that n is 10 then it follows that n2n90=0n^2-n-90=0

i.e. n=10n2n90=0n=10 \Rightarrow n^2-n-90=0


But how do you know that n=10 is the only solution? Your method is to assume the equation n2n90=0n^2-n-90=0 without proving it.

It could be the case that n=10 works and so does n=5 then

n=10n=10 or n=5n=5 n2n90=0\Rightarrow n^2-n-90=0

This is incorrect.
Original post by Ben_302
It is proving it, just in the reverse order. If n^2-n-90 didn't equal zero then this method wouldn't work.

but you're using the thing they've given you to prove, to prove it. If you use an equation to prove itself then you're not actually proving anything, except maybe 1=1

You might be lucky with the markscheme but unfortunately it's more than likely they won't accept that..
Reply 57
Original post by notnek
If you can show that n is 10 then it follows that n2n90=0n^2-n-90=0

i.e. n=10n2n90=0n=10 \Rightarrow n^2-n-90=0


But how do you know that n=10 is the only solution? Your method is to assume the equation n2n90=0n^2-n-90=0 without proving it.

It could be the case that n=10 works and so does n=5 then

n=10n=10 or n=5n=5 n2n90=0\Rightarrow n^2-n-90=0

This is incorrect.


You're correct, the other solution is -9 but as you can't have a negative number of sweets then it must be 10, there is no other solution to making that equation equal to zero and have all integer values.
Reply 58
Original post by Stevo F
but you're using the thing they've given you to prove, to prove it. If you use an equation to prove itself then you're not actually proving anything, except maybe 1=1

You might be lucky with the markscheme but unfortunately it's more than likely they won't accept that..


If they have given you it then they expect you to use it somewhere I have used it at the beginning rather than at the end, they cannot take marks away from you for choosing to do things in a different order.

If they had just said show that n^2-n-90=0 then you would solve for n so this is no different
(edited 8 years ago)
Reply 59
Original post by Ben_302
You're correct, the other solution is -9 but as you can't have a negative number of sweets then it must be 10, there is no other solution to making that equation equal to zero and have all integer values.

You say I'm correct but you seem to still think your method is OK.

Your method shows that n=10n=10 has to be a solution to the equation but it does not prove that n2n90=0n^2-n-90=0.

You can't assume an equation is true in the proof of the equation. That is known as a circular argument.

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