"Students doubt fees value for money" BBC Reports

I realise it takes a lot of work to mark work and I wouldnt mind if they were honest and said they couldnt do it in 15 days or made it more like 4 weeks or longer to help with their workloads.To be honest my complaint wasnt meant to be directed at lectures in general just the ones on my course that dont always handle just the 40 students there are in my cohort, baring in mind 3 assignment markers they supposedly allocated to each assignment.

The majority of lecturers only teach on my course(which is just lectures two days a week max) so teach around 150 people over the course of the week(when you include teaching all the students across three years)sometimes less depending on the module. I d completely understand if there were more people on my course. But not being able to mark 12-15 peoples work over 3 weeks when you say that you could be expected to do that in an hour makes my lecturers sound awful.

It was just out of 12 assignments, for 3 of them they emailed the day before we were expecting feedback to say sorry we cant do it when one would think they d have realised sooner that they wouldn't be able to do it, that was my main problem really. As students you cant request an extension the day before in most circumstances so felt a little annoyed lecturers could say 24 hours before that they couldn't do something themselves.

I agree with your point about being honest/realistic - though often the length of time for feedback turnaround is a university-wide policy (which is silly because you then have the same rule for one person making one dissertation, as you do you one person marking 40 papers!).

Even though I can see why it might happen occasionally, I think it is unacceptable that anyone thinks that less than 24 hours' notice for anything is fine, to be honest. Unless you've had a very big brain fart (excuse the expression) you would certainly know when you expect to finish your section of the marking!

That being said, of course you get individual differences - for instance, those who value their teaching commitments much less than their research ones, and the kind of lecturer who tells the rest of the team "yeah yeah sure I'll have them done by tonight"...then 2 days later you're still waiting to moderate them - often 90% of the papers are graded and ready, but you still have to wait because god forbid all of the students didn't receive their grades at precisely the same moment in time! :P

Out of interest, would you care if some students got their marks on the day they were due and just a few were delayed (as opposed to everyone's being delayed)?

(edited 8 years ago)

Reply 21

claireestelle

22

Original post by Magdatrix >_<

I agree with your point about being honest/realistic - though often the length of time for feedback turnaround is a university-wide policy (which is silly because you then have the same rule for one person making one dissertation, as you do you one person marking 40 papers!).

Even though I can see why it might happen occasionally, I think it is unacceptable that anyone thinks that less than 24 hours' notice for anything is fine, to be honest. Unless you've had a very big brain fart (excuse the expression) you would certainly know when you expect to finish your section of the marking!

That being said, of course you get individual differences - for instance, those who value their teaching commitments much less than their research ones, and the kind of lecturer who tells the rest of the team "yeah yeah sure I'll have them done by tonight"...then 2 days later you're still waiting to moderate them - often 90% of the papers are graded and ready, but you still have to wait because god forbid all of the students didn't receive their grades at precisely the same moment in time! :P

I have wondered myself about their research commitments vs teaching. My favourite lecturer one puts the most into his teaching has finished a masters and doesnt intend going in any further but some lecturers working on masters/phd dont seem anywhere near as enthusiastic as him.

Actually one time myself and one other person got our grades before they had been moderated, as they d not finished in time but not all the lecturers had amended their turnitin settings. turns out that was the one essay i nearly failed, got a 39 by the 1st marker but the other put it up by 5 marks ( i d put my spld sticker on but apparently the 1st marker took no notice).

Yeah, they must have had brain farts on 3 occasions then, it added to our annoyance to hear they d used the exact same excuse with the first years who had some feedback due a couple of weeks late than ours was:P so apparently they get more than 3 brain farts a year :/

Reply 22

Magdatrix >_<

17

Original post by claireestelle

I have wondered myself about their research commitments vs teaching. My favourite lecturer one puts the most into his teaching has finished a masters and doesnt intend going in any further but some lecturers working on masters/phd dont seem anywhere near as enthusiastic as him.

Actually one time myself and one other person got our grades before they had been moderated, as they d not finished in time but not all the lecturers had amended their turnitin settings. turns out that was the one essay i nearly failed, got a 39 by the 1st marker but the other put it up by 5 marks ( i d put my spld sticker on but apparently the 1st marker took no notice).

Yeah, they must have had brain farts on 3 occasions then, it added to our annoyance to hear they d used the exact same excuse with the first years who had some feedback due a couple of weeks late than ours was:P so apparently they get more than 3 brain farts a year :/

I don't think it depends whether they already have their PhD or not - it's more about whether they give a damn. Personally I think what's the point in doing teaching/feedback if you aren't going to (at least try to) do it well. You get people (both PhDers and 'proper-lecturers') who spend more hours than they get paid for preparing for classes and marking etc, but equally, some who write one half-assed comment on an essay and answer a student's question in class with "I don't know, I haven't looked at next week's stuff yet"...

Is spld like a learning agreement thing? We have these and I always take note of them (because a: isn't that what's meant to happen? and b: I used to have one) - I would lose my **** if I knew someone was blatantly disregarding them...

Reply 23

claireestelle

22

Original post by Magdatrix >_<

I don't think it depends whether they already have their PhD or not - it's more about whether they give a damn. Personally I think what's the point in doing teaching/feedback if you aren't going to (at least try to) do it well. You get people (both PhDers and 'proper-lecturers' :wink:

who spend more hours than they get paid for preparing for classes and marking etc, but equally, some who write one half-assed comment on an essay and answer a student's question in class with "I don't know, I haven't looked at next week's stuff yet"...

Is spld like a learning agreement thing? We have these and I always take note of them (because a: isn't that what's meant to happen? and b: I used to have one) - I would lose my **** if I knew someone was blatantly disregarding them...

its a specfic learning difficulty reminder sticker. I ve got dyslexia and dyspraxia so theres a sheet i attach to remind lecturers of my diagnoses when they mark my work, theres criteria that say they should be more lenient with my structuring and spelling and stuff or i d probably lose a good 3/4% on an essay which really helped in 1st year. this year i ve miraculously improved my structuring though so doesnt make as much of a difference as it did.

I would be very annoyed if a lecturer said they hadnt looked at next weeks stuff. I do agree there's no point in essay feedback if it doesnt help a student do better next time.

Reply 24

taeht

8

xx

(edited 8 years ago)

Reply 25

em.d_4

17

It hugely depends on what course you do. If you're doing law, humanities etc where they seem to have 10 hours of contact a week maximum then no you're not getting value for money. They all get given a reading list and essentially told to do that and then discuss it in tutorials and back it up in lectures. It's practically self taught.
Science degrees are better value for money not only because they're more vocational and often have higher earning potential but they also have far more contact time.

Reply 26

yo radical one

6

Original post by midnightice

You're being told to pay £9000 a year, only to then be told to purchase a text book and essentially self-study from that. It is not value for money at all.

This.

Is a good degree worth more than 27k? Yes in my opinion.

Does it really take 27k to deliver a good degree to one person? No.

Reply 27

SotonianOne

3

Lmao, so less than half of Scottish people think paying 0 is good value for money?

Either the questions were retarded or the students asked had a brain fade.

Reply 28

SotonianOne

3

Original post by taeht

because they believe their governments (not the situation in CR).

and czechs dont?

Reply 29

Mzeykinns

1

Overall I'm incredibly satisfied with the content of my course and the way it is run. However, considering I get a mere 8-9 contact hours a week at the moment (will most likely be a minimum of 3 come third year), £9k a year is absolutely ridiculous (even my mum said "Oh, is that it then?" once I'd wrapped up first year's lectures). Plus I've had to pay extra for reading packs, printing, etc. so I'd seriously like to know where my money is going. I'm all for free education but if the government can't give us that, perhaps they should think about charging different amounts depending on the course and how much contact time you get per year. If it were to cost less but actually cover tuition and resources rather than god knows what the government are spending it on, I might actually be fine with paying...

Posted from TSR Mobile

Reply 30

Magdatrix >_<

17

Original post by Mzeykinns

Overall I'm incredibly satisfied with the content of my course and the way it is run. However, considering I get a mere 8-9 contact hours a week at the moment (will most likely be a minimum of 3 come third year), £9k a year is absolutely ridiculous (even my mum said "Oh, is that it then?" once I'd wrapped up first year's lectures). Plus I've had to pay extra for reading packs, printing, etc. so I'd seriously like to know where my money is going. I'm all for free education but if the government can't give us that, perhaps they should think about charging different amounts depending on the course and how much contact time you get per year. If it were to cost less but actually cover tuition and resources rather than god knows what the government are spending it on, I might actually be fine with paying...

Posted from TSR Mobile

Don't you think that would cause problems (in either direction) e.g.

- Departments condensing/reducing contact hours to make the course 'cheaper' and therefore more attractive to certain students

- Departments increasing contact hours without increasing content to bring in more money

Reply 31

Texstyler

4

[QUOTE=Bill_Gates;56624321]Yes it's great value for money in comparison to other "investments" in society. Is paying 400k for a 1 bedroom flat in London, good value for money? Surely not.Knowledge is the higher purpose, further investment into education is required and HIGHER tuition fees are needed. Those who genuinely want to learn will go and those who don't will not waste 3 years.

I do believe that you have misinterpreted the question here Mr. Gates.
The issue isn't so much about whether or not a degree is a good investment. I don't think anyone would dispute that. The issue here I believe, is that of content.
A degree is indeed a fine and recognised qualification. But let us not forget that the path to this qualification is, as you have pointed out, knowledge. Yes indeed knowledge is the higher purpose. Although, if I am correct, I believe the issue here to be about how that knowledge is passed on from tutor to student and whether or not certain universities are providing as much course curriculum, or knowledge, as their prospectus' stated.
Perhaps that is the solution here, after all a prospectus is really only a sales catalogue. Maybe the universities in question should be reported to the Trading Standards Authorities for misrepresentation or similar.
Selecting an appropriate university is a minefield and hindsight of little benefit. I would advise any student who feels they were misled over their course content and believe that they are not getting value for their money to make the Students Union a first port of call. Followed by MoneySavingExpert.com which is packed to the hilt with sound, sensible and very easy to follow information.

Reply 32

Bill_Gates

21

Original post by Texstyler

I do believe that you have misinterpreted the question here Mr. Gates.
The issue isn't so much about whether or not a degree is a good investment. I don't think anyone would dispute that. The issue here I believe, is that of content.
A degree is indeed a fine and recognised qualification. But let us not forget that the path to this qualification is, as you have pointed out, knowledge. Yes indeed knowledge is the higher purpose. Although, if I am correct, I believe the issue here to be about how that knowledge is passed on from tutor to student and whether or not certain universities are providing as much course curriculum, or knowledge, as their prospectus' stated.
Perhaps that is the solution here, after all a prospectus is really only a sales catalogue. Maybe the universities in question should be reported to the Trading Standards Authorities for misrepresentation or similar.
Selecting an appropriate university is a minefield and hindsight of little benefit. I would advise any student who feels they were misled over their course content and believe that they are not getting value for their money to make the Students Union a first port of call. Followed by MoneySavingExpert.com which is packed to the hilt with sound, sensible and very easy to follow information.

I agree without a doubt. But problem is not all courses cost the same to run. So they have a profit maximizing incentive on their behalf. Medicine will cost more to teach than say psychology. But still people will want to study psychology (more so maybe). So they have to offset those costs. Higher fees will mean students don't go to the "lesser institutions" and that's why i am highlighting it is still an individual choice.

Reply 33

SlowlorisIncognito

16

Many students are unconvinced they have received value for money from their university courses, according to an annual survey.

And a large majority do not think they have been given enough information about how tuition fees are spent.

The survey suggests students average 12 hours per week "contact" time, when they are taught by staff.The findings are part of a survey of 15,000 students in the UK, carried out by higher education think tanks. To me, this doesn't sound like very much, actually- I think 15 hours a week was as low as my contact time got, although I was studying a science. I do wonder if this figure includes less formal contact time- e.g. dissertation supervisions. I guess 12 hours is probably ok for arts students who maybe have 3 lectures and a seminar each week, and don't need longer lab sessions. I do think asking about contact time is a good thing to do on open days, and maybe it's something unis should publish on their websites.

The Student Academic Experience Survey, carried out by the Higher Education Policy Institute and the Higher Education Academy, examines levels of consumer satisfaction among undergraduate students.

Information gap

The survey suggests 59% of students are "fairly satisfied" with their course - and a further 28% are "very satisfied".

But, with "the benefit of hindsight", more than a third said they would have chosen a different course. That represents about half a million students with regrets about their choice, say the researchers. I'm not sure how this is relevant to tuition fees. First time around, I chose the wrong course, but this was mostly due to pushing from my sixth-form in the wrong direction. Second time around, I did what I would have originally wanted to do and that was the right decision. I think it would help if there was less pressure on people to go to uni at 18, and do something, even if they aren't sure what they want to do, and I think most of this comes from schools and parents.

Less than half of the students believed they had had good or very good value for money from their courses - but there were big differences between the students in England and Scotland.

Only 7% of the students in England, where tuition fees are up to £9,000 per year, said they had received "very good" value, compared with 35% in Scotland, where there no tuition fees.

The survey found a widespread view the students were not being told enough about how tuition fees were being spent - with three-quarters saying the information was insufficient. I agree that this is the biggest problem. Most students have no idea how much it costs unis to subscribe to journals, or run a library, or run all the facilities they provide. They probably don't think about running costs such as electricity bills and paying support staff such as cleaners. As an example, lots of unis make specialist software available to their students on uni computers or even for students to use on their own laptops. This is actually very expensive, but it's very useful and beneficial for a lot of students!

Nick Hillman, director of the Higher Education Policy Institute, said this information gap was one of the most striking findings of the survey and that universities would have to respond.

"If it doesn't happen soon, it could be forced on universities by policymakers," he said.

Contact hours

The survey examined students' hours when they were taught by staff. There was an average of 12 hours "contact time" across all subjects, but some arts and humanities courses had eight hours per week.

Across all subjects, an average of three hours per week were spent in classes of 15 students or less, with the rest of students' classes being taught in larger groups. I do think small group contact time- even with a PhD student- is very beneficial, and this is something my course really lacked after first year.

"Course quality depends on more than contact hours and class size, but students do care deeply about these issues. They are notably less satisfied when they have fewer than 10 contact hours and classes of over 50 students," said Mr Hillman.

For many subjects, a majority of students' course time is "independent study", where students are expected to work on projects alone.

Stephanie Marshall, chief executive at the Higher Education Academy, said the study showed "high levels of overall student satisfaction".

But she also highlighted that it showed "the relatively high numbers who do not feel supported in independent study".

She said that "providing guidance and structure outside timetabled sessions is key here".

Students were also asked where any cuts in spending should fall.The most popular options for cuts were to spend less on sports facilities and new buildings, while the areas where students wanted the least cuts were hours of teaching and learning facilities. I do think unis should think very carefully about building projects. I think having nice buildings and state of the art facilities is a major selling point for a lot of unis, but the students aren't actually told how much access they will have to these buildings, which in many cases is minimal. At the uni I went to, one of their flagship new buildings is also considered not really fit for purpose by the academic staff - It's just a super expensive piece of marketing.

"This survey confirms that there is a clear link between higher education funding systems and student perceptions about value for money," said Pam Tatlow, chief executive of the Million+ group of universities.

My thoughts in bold.

Reply 34

Fullofsurprises

20

Original post by AffirmedCube

What exactly is the 27k per student being spent on? I'm beyond baffled.

Well, for one thing, sky-high salaries for top managers. Quarter to half a million for VCs for example.
https://www.timeshighereducation.co.uk/features/times-higher-education-pay-survey-2015/2019360.article

Reply 35

AffirmedCube

9

Original post by Fullofsurprises

Well, for one thing, sky-high salaries for top managers. Quarter to half a million for VCs for example.
https://www.timeshighereducation.co.uk/features/times-higher-education-pay-survey-2015/2019360.article

That's disgusting :hmmm:

Reply 36

Fullofsurprises

20

Original post by SlowlorisIncognito

My thoughts in bold.

The library thing is a good example of where probably a lot of money is spent in the wrong places now by universities. The age of books is coming to an end, like it or not. Most students spend most of their time with online sources across many subjects and most/many books and book/journal sources are digitally available. At the London-based university I work in, the huge library building is mainly used as a place to sit with one's laptop doing anything but studying books. It's not even very good at that. It would be better to have purpose-built, comfortable 'digital centres' with coffee machines and good lighting to use laptops, chat in conferencing zones and large study areas. Books could be ordered on request in digital format.

Reply 37

SlowlorisIncognito

16

Original post by Fullofsurprises

The library thing is a good example of where probably a lot of money is spent in the wrong places now by universities. The age of books is coming to an end, like it or not. Most students spend most of their time with online sources across many subjects and most/many books and book/journal sources are digitally available. At the London-based university I work in, the huge library building is mainly used as a place to sit with one's laptop doing anything but studying books. It's not even very good at that. It would be better to have purpose-built, comfortable 'digital centres' with coffee machines and good lighting to use laptops, chat in conferencing zones and large study areas. Books could be ordered on request in digital format.

Buying books and journals in e-format only is probably a smart move for a lot of library services, for sure.

At most unis, I would say the library building is usually one of the best study spaces, and usually provides things like open access computers and more complex printing services as well as things like group study spaces. For many unis, I would guess a large proportion of their library spending actually goes on electricity :tongue:

.

I do think not having that kind of communal study space would have been detrimental to my uni experience.

Reply 38

aaronlowe

1

By the time I'd finished uni I'd racked up £40k of debt. Rather than being free to earn my living I was chained to my past.

Luckily I met a rich girlfriend to decided to pay it off. So, now I'm debt free :biggrin:

But I got lucky. It shouldn't be about luck.

Reply 39

SlowlorisIncognito

16

Original post by aaronlowe

By the time I'd finished uni I'd racked up £40k of debt. Rather than being free to earn my living I was chained to my past.

Luckily I met a rich girlfriend to decided to pay it off. So, now I'm debt free :biggrin:

But I got lucky. It shouldn't be about luck.

Some of that must have been commercial debt though? Or did you spend more than three years at uni?

Either way, to be fair, my debt repayments are minimal, and everything will be wiped out before I'm 50. IMO, the student loan system is not that bad, and actually probably less punitive than a graduate tax.

"Students doubt fees value for money" BBC Reports

Quick Reply

Related discussions

Latest

Trending

Trending

Articles for you