Psychiatrist explores the psychology of transgenderism
http://cnsnews.com/news/article/michael-w-chapman/johns-hopkins-psychiatrist-transgender-mental-disorder-sex-change
This is from a psychiatrist in one of the most highly rated med schools in the world.
“This intensely felt sense of being transgendered constitutes a mental disorder in two respects. The first is that the idea of sex misalignment is simply mistaken – it does not correspond with physical reality. The second is that it can lead to grim psychological outcomes.”
The transgendered person’s disorder, said Dr. McHugh, is in the person’s “assumption” that they are different than the physical reality of their body, their maleness or femaleness, as assigned by nature. It is a disorder similar to a “dangerously thin” person suffering anorexia who looks in the mirror and thinks they are “overweight,” said McHugh.
This is from a psychiatrist in one of the most highly rated med schools in the world.
“This intensely felt sense of being transgendered constitutes a mental disorder in two respects. The first is that the idea of sex misalignment is simply mistaken – it does not correspond with physical reality. The second is that it can lead to grim psychological outcomes.”
The transgendered person’s disorder, said Dr. McHugh, is in the person’s “assumption” that they are different than the physical reality of their body, their maleness or femaleness, as assigned by nature. It is a disorder similar to a “dangerously thin” person suffering anorexia who looks in the mirror and thinks they are “overweight,” said McHugh.
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Interesting article in the Wall Street Journal, a top psychiatrist from Johns Hopkins medical centre, one of the very best hospitals in the world, says that they stopped doing sex reassignment because they had bad results, that it does not deal with the underlying issues
http://www.wsj.com/articles/paul-mchugh-transgender-surgery-isnt-the-solution-1402615120
He says that the important consideration here is one of simple biology; when someone is transgender, it's not that they were a woman born in a male body or a man born in a woman's body, they are (barring the usual XXY and other exceptions) a male or a female who is suffering from a dysmorphia. When someone with anorexia/body dysmorphia etc suffers from a warped perception of their body, we don't give them surgery; we help them to understand and accept the body they were born with, that the body is not the problem.
There is no underlying, substantive biological basis for claiming that a transgender person is biologically one sex inside another one, that there was some "mistake". Given that's the case, wouldn't it be better to treat the problem?
Some people would argue "Well, didn't they say that gay people were mentally ill too?". The difference with homosexuality is that they are not suffering from a delusion as to the fundamental nature of their biology, and they are not asking to be permanently mutilated by surgery in a way that is irrevocable.
The saddest story I read was of a Belgian woman who asked for a sex change to become a male. But once she did, she didn't feel like a man, and realised that had not been the problem after all. She then asked to be euthanised (at the age of 44) on the grounds of "unbearable suffering", and the Belgian doctors coldly complied.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/belgium/10346616/Belgian-killed-by-euthanasia-after-a-botched-sex-change-operation.html
I have absolutely no problem with people wanting to assume whatever "gender identity" they choose, but in the rush to give acceptance to trans people, is it possible that medical science has conferred too much substance on an unscientific idea? (that trans people are one sex stuck inside another sex) I find that particularly chilling when I saw the Louis Theroux documentary where they are now doing sex reassignment for 12 year olds. Perhaps if society were more accepting and less rigid in its gender expectations, people woudl not seek to mutilate their bodies?
I think 100 years from now we might look on sex reassignment surgery for ordinary transgender people as being as barbaric as sex reassignment surgery was when it was being recommended as a treatment for homosexuality (in the 1970s, and still is in Iran)
http://www.wsj.com/articles/paul-mchugh-transgender-surgery-isnt-the-solution-1402615120
He says that the important consideration here is one of simple biology; when someone is transgender, it's not that they were a woman born in a male body or a man born in a woman's body, they are (barring the usual XXY and other exceptions) a male or a female who is suffering from a dysmorphia. When someone with anorexia/body dysmorphia etc suffers from a warped perception of their body, we don't give them surgery; we help them to understand and accept the body they were born with, that the body is not the problem.
There is no underlying, substantive biological basis for claiming that a transgender person is biologically one sex inside another one, that there was some "mistake". Given that's the case, wouldn't it be better to treat the problem?
Some people would argue "Well, didn't they say that gay people were mentally ill too?". The difference with homosexuality is that they are not suffering from a delusion as to the fundamental nature of their biology, and they are not asking to be permanently mutilated by surgery in a way that is irrevocable.
The saddest story I read was of a Belgian woman who asked for a sex change to become a male. But once she did, she didn't feel like a man, and realised that had not been the problem after all. She then asked to be euthanised (at the age of 44) on the grounds of "unbearable suffering", and the Belgian doctors coldly complied.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/belgium/10346616/Belgian-killed-by-euthanasia-after-a-botched-sex-change-operation.html
I have absolutely no problem with people wanting to assume whatever "gender identity" they choose, but in the rush to give acceptance to trans people, is it possible that medical science has conferred too much substance on an unscientific idea? (that trans people are one sex stuck inside another sex) I find that particularly chilling when I saw the Louis Theroux documentary where they are now doing sex reassignment for 12 year olds. Perhaps if society were more accepting and less rigid in its gender expectations, people woudl not seek to mutilate their bodies?
I think 100 years from now we might look on sex reassignment surgery for ordinary transgender people as being as barbaric as sex reassignment surgery was when it was being recommended as a treatment for homosexuality (in the 1970s, and still is in Iran)
(edited 8 years ago)
http://www.transadvocate.com/clinging-to-a-dangerous-past-dr-paul-mchughs-selective-reading-of-transgender-medical-literature_n_13842.htm
I'm too lazy to read it myself but does this reply to the article suffice as a refutation?
I'm too lazy to read it myself but does this reply to the article suffice as a refutation?
If not maybe http://www.glaad.org/blog/wall-street-journal-runs-op-ed-longtime-anti-trans-psychiatrist-paul-mchugh will help
This opinion piece is a year old.
(And 12 year olds are NOT being given surgery or sex reassignment - they are given puberty blockers to minimise the impact of hormones on their body until they are old enough to decide if they want to undergo puberty as a man or a woman).
This opinion piece is a year old.
(And 12 year olds are NOT being given surgery or sex reassignment - they are given puberty blockers to minimise the impact of hormones on their body until they are old enough to decide if they want to undergo puberty as a man or a woman).
Original post by Truths
Gender dysmorphia is obviously a mental disorder, yet it has still only ever been cured through surgery not therapy. So you might as well drop it 
That is a very bold claim. Any evidence?
Posted from TSR Mobile
Transgenderism is not remotely like an eating disorder, it's a ridiculous analogy.
Original post by DiddyDec
I'd suggest starting with http://www.wpath.org/site_page.cfm?pk_association_webpage_menu=1352
Original post by paradoxicalme
Transgenderism is not remotely like an eating disorder, it's a ridiculous analogy.
The eating part is irrelevant; the relevant consideration is body dysmorphia.
Tell me, is a trans person really one sex born inside another sex? Is it accurate to say that their sex is "incorrect"?
Original post by keromedic
I'm too lazy
I'm too lazy
Given that's the case, do you honestly think I would extend you the courtesy of rebutting arguments you are too lazy even to make?
Original post by PQ
I'd suggest starting with http://www.wpath.org/site_page.cfm?pk_association_webpage_menu=1352
Is that, "I can't actually directly cite anything, because I don't know any paper or article that would substantiate the claim that the only 'cure' for transgenderism is surgery".
On its face it's a ludicrous assertion, given there are trans people who quite happily decide to keep the genitals of their birth, there are trans people who detransition, there are trans people who regret surgery.
It seems that this is more an issue of advocacy and being politically correct than it is about the actual scientific and medical facts. No wonder people who decide to detransition are mercilessly bullied by the trans community
Original post by TheBlackWatch
Is that, "I can't actually directly cite anything, because I don't know any paper or article that would substantiate the claim that the only 'cure' for transgenderism is surgery".
On its face it's a ludicrous assertion, given there are trans people who quite happily decide to keep the genitals of their birth, there are trans people who detransition, there are trans people who regret surgery.
It seems that this is more an issue of advocacy and being politically correct than it is about the actual scientific and medical facts. No wonder people who decide to detransition are mercilessly bullied by the trans community
On its face it's a ludicrous assertion, given there are trans people who quite happily decide to keep the genitals of their birth, there are trans people who detransition, there are trans people who regret surgery.
It seems that this is more an issue of advocacy and being politically correct than it is about the actual scientific and medical facts. No wonder people who decide to detransition are mercilessly bullied by the trans community
The papers are all cited on the WPATH website listed above. WPATH is focused on recommending evidence based treatment for trans people.
The evidence is clear. The exact details for transition will vary between different people depending on their dysphoria and the level of stigma they encounter if they don't "pass".
Are you really concerned for trans people and want to reduce their suffering?
Everything's a disorder. You get disorders which affect most people, or a small number.
It does seem strange to get offended over being called a disorder, it's not like anyone's got anything against you.
It does seem strange to get offended over being called a disorder, it's not like anyone's got anything against you.
Original post by TheBlackWatch
Is that, "I can't actually directly cite anything, because I don't know any paper or article that would substantiate the claim that the only 'cure' for transgenderism is surgery".
On its face it's a ludicrous assertion, given there are trans people who quite happily decide to keep the genitals of their birth, there are trans people who detransition, there are trans people who regret surgery.
It seems that this is more an issue of advocacy and being politically correct than it is about the actual scientific and medical facts. No wonder people who decide to detransition are mercilessly bullied by the trans community
On its face it's a ludicrous assertion, given there are trans people who quite happily decide to keep the genitals of their birth, there are trans people who detransition, there are trans people who regret surgery.
It seems that this is more an issue of advocacy and being politically correct than it is about the actual scientific and medical facts. No wonder people who decide to detransition are mercilessly bullied by the trans community
Yes I did simply it. And you are right that many keep their genitals and many regret surgery, but as it stands, transitioning seems to be the only cure so far.
Original post by PQ
The papers are all cited on the WPATH website listed above. WPATH is focused on recommending evidence based treatment for trans people.
That was not the proposition. You claimed that there is evidence to suggest surgical treatment is the *only* treatment. That on its face is ludicrous when there are many trans people who opt not to have surgery
The evidence is clear. The exact details for transition will vary between different people depending on their dysphoria and the level of stigma they encounter if they don't "pass".
So the decision as to whether to mutilate their body should be based on completely external, uncontrollable factors like the "level of stigma" rather than fundamental, underlying biological considerations? That is just madness
Are you really concerned for trans people and want to reduce their suffering?
Yes. Are you denying that there are trans people who regret their surgery? Who feel mutilated and horrified at what they have done after it happens?
I think it is far more preferable (and I think this will be how things are in the future) is that trans people are accepting and comfortable of the body they were born with.
You must accept that, excepting certain XXY syndromes and the like, the trans person is not "born in the wrong body", they are suffering from a dysmorphia that is in the mind. You can't change from being sex male to sex female, there is no medical means to do this.
And if gender is just a performance anyway (as trans people tell us), a guy can wear female clothes or speak a certain way, and vice versa, without mutilating their genitals in an irrevocable way. He can be whatever gender he chooses; his genitals have no effect on that at all.
Original post by Truths
Yes I did simply it. And you are right that many keep their genitals and many regret surgery, but as it stands, transitioning seems to be the only cure so far.
A cure for some. For those people for whom they feel mutilated, it obviously wasn't a "cure". In fact, it's a mutilation and a tort beyond belief. Sex reassignment doctors and psychiatrists really need to get their act together and stop being so uncritical in putting people under the knife
Original post by TheBlackWatch
A cure for some. For those people for whom they feel mutilated, it obviously wasn't a "cure". In fact, it's a mutilation and a tort beyond belief. Sex reassignment doctors and psychiatrists really need to get their act together and stop being so uncritical in putting people under the knife
Do you have any evidence to suggest that medical staff are currently being "uncritical" before conducting surgery?
Edit: http://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/6160626 try to avoid the papers that are usually misquoted that are explained here
(edited 8 years ago)
Original post by TheBlackWatch
A cure for some. For those people for whom they feel mutilated, it obviously wasn't a "cure". In fact, it's a mutilation and a tort beyond belief. Sex reassignment doctors and psychiatrists really need to get their act together and stop being so uncritical in putting people under the knife
I always assumed those who felt mutilated, uncomfortable with their surgeries were simply the ones overwhelmed by the continued stigma/lack of legitimacy in society, and the chore of taking hormones, the realisation of having an artificial sex organ/can not reproduce. I'm sure all of these things would contribute to depression or any unsettling feeling between post op trans.
Original post by TheBlackWatch
Interesting article in the Wall Street Journal, a top psychiatrist from Johns Hopkins medical centre, one of the very best hospitals in the world, says that they stopped doing sex reassignment because they had bad results, that it does not deal with the underlying issues
http://www.wsj.com/articles/paul-mchugh-transgender-surgery-isnt-the-solution-1402615120
He says that the important consideration here is one of simple biology; when someone is transgender, it's not that they were a woman born in a male body or a man born in a woman's body, they are (barring the usual XXY and other exceptions) a male or a female who is suffering from a dysmorphia. When someone with anorexia/body dysmorphia etc suffers from a warped perception of their body, we don't give them surgery; we help them to understand and accept the body they were born with, that the body is not the problem.
There is no underlying, substantive biological basis for claiming that a transgender person is biologically one sex inside another one, that there was some "mistake". Given that's the case, wouldn't it be better to treat the problem?
Some people would argue "Well, didn't they say that gay people were mentally ill too?". The difference with homosexuality is that they are not suffering from a delusion as to the fundamental nature of their biology, and they are not asking to be permanently mutilated by surgery in a way that is irrevocable.
The saddest story I read was of a Belgian woman who asked for a sex change to become a male. But once she did, she didn't feel like a man, and realised that had not been the problem after all. She then asked to be euthanised (at the age of 44) on the grounds of "unbearable suffering", and the Belgian doctors coldly complied.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/belgium/10346616/Belgian-killed-by-euthanasia-after-a-botched-sex-change-operation.html
I have absolutely no problem with people wanting to assume whatever "gender identity" they choose, but in the rush to give acceptance to trans people, is it possible that medical science has conferred too much substance on an unscientific idea? (that trans people are one sex stuck inside another sex) I find that particularly chilling when I saw the Louis Theroux documentary where they are now doing sex reassignment for 12 year olds. Perhaps if society were more accepting and less rigid in its gender expectations, people woudl not seek to mutilate their bodies?
I think 100 years from now we might look on sex reassignment surgery for ordinary transgender people as being as barbaric as sex reassignment surgery was when it was being recommended as a treatment for homosexuality (in the 1970s, and still is in Iran)
http://www.wsj.com/articles/paul-mchugh-transgender-surgery-isnt-the-solution-1402615120
He says that the important consideration here is one of simple biology; when someone is transgender, it's not that they were a woman born in a male body or a man born in a woman's body, they are (barring the usual XXY and other exceptions) a male or a female who is suffering from a dysmorphia. When someone with anorexia/body dysmorphia etc suffers from a warped perception of their body, we don't give them surgery; we help them to understand and accept the body they were born with, that the body is not the problem.
There is no underlying, substantive biological basis for claiming that a transgender person is biologically one sex inside another one, that there was some "mistake". Given that's the case, wouldn't it be better to treat the problem?
Some people would argue "Well, didn't they say that gay people were mentally ill too?". The difference with homosexuality is that they are not suffering from a delusion as to the fundamental nature of their biology, and they are not asking to be permanently mutilated by surgery in a way that is irrevocable.
The saddest story I read was of a Belgian woman who asked for a sex change to become a male. But once she did, she didn't feel like a man, and realised that had not been the problem after all. She then asked to be euthanised (at the age of 44) on the grounds of "unbearable suffering", and the Belgian doctors coldly complied.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/belgium/10346616/Belgian-killed-by-euthanasia-after-a-botched-sex-change-operation.html
I have absolutely no problem with people wanting to assume whatever "gender identity" they choose, but in the rush to give acceptance to trans people, is it possible that medical science has conferred too much substance on an unscientific idea? (that trans people are one sex stuck inside another sex) I find that particularly chilling when I saw the Louis Theroux documentary where they are now doing sex reassignment for 12 year olds. Perhaps if society were more accepting and less rigid in its gender expectations, people woudl not seek to mutilate their bodies?
I think 100 years from now we might look on sex reassignment surgery for ordinary transgender people as being as barbaric as sex reassignment surgery was when it was being recommended as a treatment for homosexuality (in the 1970s, and still is in Iran)
Well before you can be referred to a gender clinic in England (no idea about anywhere else) you have to have a diagnosis of Gender Identity Disorder (note the last word in that diagnosis) or gender dysphoria. So it is classed as a disorder in this country. However, the means of treating the disorder vary from person to person as some people have stronger dysphoria about certain aspects of their body. A lot of people never go under the knife at all - some have therapy/some take hormone treatments/some dress in a different way etc. So its not a 'one size fits all' type of treatment that is on offer and that's how it should remain. No on just says "I want surgery" and has an operation of any kind soon after. You have to spend at least a year living in the gender that you wish to physically be before you are even considered for hormone treatment. So that means changing your title (Miss/Mr/Mrs etc) wearing clothes that are typically worn by the gender you feel you are etc. Unless someone is really certain that they can withstand walking around obviously looking like their birth sex dressed as the opposite sex (in most cases) then there's zero chance that they would put thenselves through that in order to receive treatment. Not only is it personally very uncomfortable (even harder when you are an adult and have a job!) it also puts you at risk of attack (verbal/physical).
Now, I don't know about the access to health services/treatments in other countries but if you're a regular person in England it's really not as easy as saying "I want to have surgery to correct this" and then seeing your GP to get an appointment sorted. It's a massively long drawn out process which, as emotionally difficult as that may be for people who are 100% certain of transition, it prevents people from making hasty decisions and doing something that is wrong for them.
The problem is that the NHS waiting lists for therapy are massively long and it can take over a year before you even reach that stage which means people who may have otherwise dealt with their feelings via therapy may take their own lives or go abroad to have hormone treatment and surgery. There should be immediate therapist referrals by the NHS -NOT just a session with a physcologist to diagnose GID and then a referal onto a gender clinic which deals with transition surgery and hormones - there needs to be more consideration of helping people via therapy, not just putting them on a conveyor belt to/through a clinic.
But until that happens, it's good that the NHS has ridiculously long waiting lists and a drawn out way of handling GID cases otherwise people who could get through their feelings with therapy would be getting operations before they've had enough time to really consider everything. On the other hand, the drawn out process is really not great for people who are very sure eg older people who may then have to pay a lot of money to go abroad.
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