[Justintabib]

so anyone from Africa enbracing Judaism is a Jew or one of the Jewish people?
(but not a child of Israel)

[gemgems89]

(Original post by Justintabib)
so anyone from Africa enbracing Judaism is a Jew or one of the Jewish people?
(but not a child of Israel)

Eh? You're only a Jew/Jewish person/child of Israel if your mother is or if you convert.

[samba]

(Original post by Justintabib)
so anyone from Africa enbracing Judaism is a Jew or one of the Jewish people?
(but not a child of Israel)

No, jewish heritage is defined through the mother.

If your mother is a jew, then you are. If not then you aren't.

It doesnt depend which tribe you were from etc these days, although I see where you're coming from

[Helzerel]

Justintabib - why the curiousity with Judaism? Have you got a hidden motive? Just an innocent question.

[Justintabib]

(Original post by gemgems89)
Another synonym.

Yes because he's still biologically Jewish.

Jew and Jewish people are merely synonyms just like english and english people. They all believe in Judaism.

So why would you still call him Jewish even after he converts to another religion? Bilologically Jewish?
For other religions, there is no term like biologically Christian or Muslim or Hindu. (even though Muslims believe everyone is born a Muslim - i.e. a submitter to God but his environment and parents influence him to be otherwise).
So is this exclusive for Judaism? Anyone born in a Jewish family will forever be Jewish no matter which religion he decides to follow later?

[gemgems89]

(Original post by Justintabib)
Jew and Jewish people are merely synonyms just like english and english people. They all believe in Judaism.

So why would you still call him Jewish even after he converts to another religion? Bilologically Jewish?
For other religions, there is no term like biologically Christian or Muslim or Hindu. (even though Muslims believe everyone is born a Muslim - i.e. a submitter to God but his environment and parents influence him to be otherwise).
So is this exclusive for Judaism? Anyone born in a Jewish family will forever be Jewish no matter which religion he decides to follow later?

Because once your mother is Jewish so are you. It's matrilineal. And so biologically Jewish, for wanting of a better word.

[cheesecakebobby]

What if your mother converts from Judaism, do you stop being Jewish? In the event she originally converted to Judaism rather than had a Jewish mother.

[Justintabib]

(Original post by Helzerel)
Justintabib - why the curiousity with Judaism? Have you got a hidden motive? Just an innocent question.

I'll leave you to guess on that.

Just attempting to unfold the religion of Judaism, it's to me an exclusive, secret religion. And I dont want to hear people telling me that just because I was born and bred into a Muslim family made me a Muslim.

And I have heard this thing so many times: we need to create a bridge between all three monotheistic religions. I think the bridge is already there. We just need to help each other out!

But the moment I take a deeper look into Christianity, their beliefs of Jesus died for our sins and he is son of God, pulls me off big time. Judaism is more appealing and it's like a pearl being uncovered .

[Helzerel]

(Original post by cheesecakebobby)
What if your mother converts from Judaism, do you stop being Jewish? In the event she originally converted to Judaism rather than had a Jewish mother.

If she was born Jewish - then all her offspring are Jewish.
If she converted in - it depends on how she converted. Do you know if it was an Orthodox or a Reform conversion? The latter doesn't go according to Jewish law so isn't accepted by Orthodoxy.

[cheesecakebobby]

(Original post by Helzerel)
If she was born Jewish - then all her offspring are Jewish.
If she converted in - it depends on how she converted. Do you know if it was an Orthodox or a Reform conversion? The latter doesn't go according to Jewish law so isn't accepted by Orthodoxy.

I was just being hypothetical to get Gem to admit it is just a traditional belief will no logical reason. There is nothing culturally wrong with that but I wanted to show it is pointless trying to explain the thinking behind it!

[Justintabib]

(Original post by gemgems89)
Eh? You're only a Jew/Jewish person/child of Israel if your mother is or if you convert.

That's what I was talking about. If I am converting to Judaism tomorrow, I will be a Jew/Jewish/child of Israel (though my mother is not Jewish)?

But samba seems to differ.

Do I get a passport for Israel as well?

[cheesecakebobby]

You get a Jew Peter badge

[The face of Jacob]

(Original post by Justintabib)
Jew and Jewish people are merely synonyms just like english and english people. They all believe in Judaism.

So why would you still call him Jewish even after he converts to another religion? Bilologically Jewish?
For other religions, there is no term like biologically Christian or Muslim or Hindu. (even though Muslims believe everyone is born a Muslim - i.e. a submitter to God but his environment and parents influence him to be otherwise).
So is this exclusive for Judaism? Anyone born in a Jewish family will forever be Jewish no matter which religion he decides to follow later?

Because Judaism isn't a religion but a nation, an identity. A Jew is someone who belongs to the tribe of Judah/children of Israel. It's like a British who lives in Japan will always will be a British. He may be a Japanese citizen but he will always be British. A Jew is someone that his mother is Jew.

Christianity and Islam are religions which were forced upon many nationalities. The Jews who are living in all the countries of the world are belong to one nation, one family and they all came from one place.

Judaism is a nationality, an identity.

"and ye shall be unto Me a kingdom of priests, and a holy nation."

"and have set you apart from the nations, that ye should be Mine."

The Jewish nation is made up of the Jews living in all the countries in the world. They left Israel when they were exiled by the Romans 2000 years ago. There's no such thing as 'Islamic nation'/'Christian nation'; there's an Islamic religion/Christian religion. A Muslim in Britain has no genetic connection to a Muslim in China. A Jew in Britain has a genetic connection to a Jew in China; they are from the same family, from the same nation. Britain and China are the names of the descendants of Noah: Tubal and Cin. The countries in the world are named after the descendants of Noah. The Jews are children of Israel. A Jew in Libya doesn't feel like a Muslim in Libya. Jews also have a country and this is why they are a nation and not a religion. The Jews are descendants of Judah but the Muslims are not descendants of Islam and Christians are not decsendants of Christianity. That term describes a situation and not a nation. You can find Muslims and Christians from many nations, but the Jews who are living in their countries belong to one nation, the Jewish nation, and they feel like strangers in these countries.

"I'm going home," says British-born Sharon. "It's a place that I have wanted to go for many years. My mother is Israeli and our family have survived there for many years in difficult times. But I am also going for the good times."

"To say you are a Jew because of your religion is not the whole story. You are part of a people with a shared history and culture. It's the story of a Jewish civilisation to want to return to Israel."

"I know we have our Jewish community here but Israel, its environment is much larger. I don't want people to think that I am some kind of religious zealot, because I'm not, but Israel has kedushah - a holiness of the soil - that makes me feel closer to God."

"We believe that this is our country we are going to and that gives us protection. I could get on the Tube tomorrow here in London and the risks are the same."

People are wonderful to you," he says. "You're not a 'bloody immigrant' - none of that talk you get here in England. You're someone coming home who hears: 'Baruch haba! Welcome here!

Full article inside

"In America, we are living on borrowed time. This isn’t really our home. The one and only place a Jew can be a Jew without explaining anything is Israel. That is our true home, our history, and our holidays,"

Full article inside

"According to Ben, Dan was very sensitive to questions of double loyalty that inevitably arose with a kippah-wearing Jewish-American ambassador at the helm. “In the American administration, they always claim that it’s never clear where the Jews’ loyalty lies. When my brother was appointed ambassador to Cairo, the Egyptian press called him ‘Israel’s second ambassador’. When people would ask me who I’m more loyal to, I would always say that if, G-d forbid, a war would break out between the United States and Israel, I would fight on the Israeli side."

Full article inside

People who are Jews will remain Jews forever, even if they abandon their history and start to believe in other things If they assimilate, their children won't be Jews and won't be born as Jews. So you may ask what about the ones who 'convert to Judaism'? Well, they don't convert but join the Jewish nation. They are equal in the eyes of the Jews and they are allowed to marry Jews but they are not Jewish but Ger Zedek and will remain as Ger Zedek for the rest of their lives. Their descendants, given Jewish partners, will be considered as Jews.

It's like Chelsea Clinton will always be the daughter of her parents, even if tomorrow she will believe that she is a daughter of aliens, it doesn't matter. Forever she will be the daughter of her parents.

Look, even Christians and Muslims define themselves as their nations. George Bush, he may be a devoted Christian but when he is asked who he is he says that he is an American.

Ahmadinejad was asked if he would change the name of the Persian gulf to the "Islam Gulf" and he said that he will never do it.

People don't born as Christians, people don't born as Muslims.
People are raised as Christians and raised as Muslims.
They are all Noachides, who are decsendatns of Noach.
In the same way that Jim Long was raised as Christian but he always was a Noachide and now he returned to his true identity.

BECAUSE HE IS WRITING THAT YOU WERE A JEW AND YOU WILL REMAIN A JEW EVEN IF YOU WILL CONVERT YOUR RELIGION , EVEN IF YOU WILL EVADE, YOU HAVE A JEWISH MENARALITY AND A JEWISH PERSONALITY AND YOU ALWAYS WERE LIKE THIS. Full article inside

[Helzerel]

If you convert properly (which on average takes 3 years) then yes you will be a Jew/Jewish/Child of Israel.

You can get an Israeli passport no matter what religion you are - if you're an Israeli citizen....just like most other normal countries in the world.


Rob - could you expand on how it's a 'traditional belief with no logical reason' ?

[gemgems89]

(Original post by Justintabib)
That's what I was talking about. If I am converting to Judaism tomorrow, I will be a Jew/Jewish/child of Israel (though my mother is not Jewish)?

But samba seems to differ.

Do I get a passport for Israel as well?

Well the conversion process takes quite a long time (if it's Orthodox) so probably not, but eventually, yes.

Not unless you want one. But you can get one of those now if you wanted...

[The face of Jacob]

(Original post by Helzerel)
If you convert properly (which on average takes 3 years) then yes you will be a Jew/Jewish/Child of Israel.

You can get an Israeli passport no matter what religion you are - if you're an Israeli citizen....just like most other normal countries in the world.


Rob - could you expand on how it's a 'traditional belief with no logical reason' ?

You can be also an Arab citizen of Israel, so what? I'm not talking about a citizenship now.

From the Israeli Wikipedia:

In the Sages of blessed memory we can find 2 voices regarding the position of the Gerim. From one side we can find expressions like "The Gerim are hard for Israel as a psoriasis" (Talmud Bavly, Yabamot 47-2) and in other side the Gerim Zedek are mentioned together with the saintly and the hassids and the writters in the nation of Israel that the one who is praying is ask for mercy for them (mercy for all the nation of Israel). The continue of this debate is in the question if a Ger can say in the Parsha Mikra Bikurim the sentence: "Our God and the God of our fathers" or is it that the fathers of the nation - Abraham, Isaac and Yaakov, are consider to be his ancestors (Mishna, Masechet Bikurim, 1-4). The opinion of the Mishna is that the Ger brings Bikurim (first fruits) but he isn't reading, but in the Talmud Yerushalmi there's the opinion of Rabbi Yehuda that a Ger brings the Bikurim and he is allowed to read it and the fathers of the nation are consider to be his fathers also. In the main dabate there is the issue if the Jewish nation is a family that carries a genetic information from one generation to another and the Ger isn't part of this family or is it that the Jewish family is created because of sharing of ideas and common values and above all the belief in one God that taught the Torah to the nation of Israel and to the whole world. Rabbi Yehuda Halevi is showing in a clear way in the book HaKuzari the approach that the friendship in the Jewish nation is an internal "family" issue which relates, according to him, to a specialness that rans in the nation of Israel from a generation to generation since first Adam through Noach and the 3 fathers: Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and this is what he says: "And all the ones who will arrive to us from the forearms in particular will arrive because of the favor that God did to us, but he will not be equal with us." and in the other hand, Rambam is writting to Ovadia Ger Zedek that: "There is no difference at all between you and me... (the 3 dots are the origin) and your origin shouldn't be less in your opinion....If we are relating to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob then you are relating to the one who said that the world was." The approach of Rabbi Yehuda Halevi was the main approach in the Kabbalah untill the time that the Kabbalah of the Haa"ri (Rabbi Yitzhak Loria) spreaded. The teaching of Haar"i, with the main emphasis on the "raising of the shinnings", saw in the souls of the Gerim as souls that in the basis of them they are souls of Israel that were rolling in the nations (which means origin Israeli souls that could have been assimilated etc) and according this teaching the process of the Giur is a process in which souls that carry the specialness of Israel are returning to the Jewish nation.

And by thy way, in the Israeli ID, there's no mention to your religion but to your nationality (HaLeom). Untill 2003 the nationality of the citizens of Israel was written in the Israeli ID, if you were Jew then it was written 'Jew', if you were an Arab then it would written 'Arab' (it doesn't matter if you are a 'Christian Arab'), but since 2003 it's not written no more but it's blank.

My ID, the HaLeom field is empty:



The ID of the oldest citizen of Israel, an Arab (Whom I think is a Christian) and it's written 'Arab':



From this video

They converted aren't Jews cause they didn't born to the Jewish tribe. They are Ger Zedek.

[Helzerel]

(Original post by The face of Jacob)
You can be also an Arab citizen of Israel, so what? I'm not talking about a citizenship now.

How nice. I was actually responding to the post made by Justintabib - which is why I quoted him and why my post was a direct answer to his questions.

[theduffy]

Can I ask a different question? Well, actually more than one

1. Kosher - do all the Jews here keep the Kashrut laws, and to what extent? I am seriously thinking about conversion to Judiasm, and that seems one of the most obvious things that would affect my life if I were to do so. Is it easier just to be vegetarian, for example?

2. Hebrew - is it difficult to learn? I only ask because I've applied to read Jewish Studies at University, and I'm beginning to panic about it being too difficult!

Thanks

[Justintabib]

(Original post by theduffy)
I am seriously thinking about conversion to Judiasm, and that seems one of the most obvious things that would affect my life if I were to do so. Is it easier just to be vegetarian, for example?

if you dont mind me asking, which religion do you belong to now?
and what made u think seriously about converting to Judaism in particular?
Cheers.

[Helzerel]

(Original post by theduffy)
Can I ask a different question? Well, actually more than one

1. Kosher - do all the Jews here keep the Kashrut laws, and to what extent? I am seriously thinking about conversion to Judiasm, and that seems one of the most obvious things that would affect my life if I were to do so. Is it easier just to be vegetarian, for example?

2. Hebrew - is it difficult to learn? I only ask because I've applied to read Jewish Studies at University, and I'm beginning to panic about it being too difficult!

Thanks

Yes you can.

'here' meaning TSR? Depends on whom.
'here' meaning the big outside world? Depends on whom.
Heck no - why on earth would you want to be a veggie? Think of all that amazing food you're giving up! Just coz we have laws about how to prep. the meat doesn't mean it's difficult to eat it! I have meat every single day! (at lunchtimes FYI). Tbh it depends on where you live - if you live where a Jewish community is, then no it's not difficult at all coz there'll be kosher butchers. If you live in the back end of nowhere then yes it might be a wee problem.

2. Modern Hebrew - is supposed to be one of the more easy languages to learn. Basically, there's not that much irregular/exceptions like there is in English. There's past,present and future tense and maybe one more but that's it. The only slight problem is that it's a gender language which can get rather annoying at times.
Biblical Hebrew - isn't spoken anymore, you just learn how to translate from BH into English. Again, see above - not that difficult. Only thing is that it's a different script but once you've mastered that it's not bad at all. Nice regular unsurprising lang.

Out of interest - which uni? And why do you want to convert?