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Reply 20
Yes, I think Jade's mum should have seriously considered not procreating.
Reply 21
PaperMoon
Yes, I think Jade's mum should have seriously considered not procreating.


I think Jades grand parents should have considered abortion. End the whole farce before it even begins.
Reply 22
Attractiveness is 'arbitrarily constructed'? It is a human concept, but it isn't a construct. Their are definite biological and evolutionary factors underlying how attractive a given person is. tehjonny.


Erm, lost a few brain cells did we?

What one person finds attractive another can find repulsive. Why? Well, human beings are not blind slaves to biological forces, they have this thing called 'culture' and another thing called 'socialisation'.

Y'see?

There are websites which cater for men who find very fat women attractive. Are you going to deny that these men 'really' are attracted to such women?

Oswy.
Reply 23
Oswy
Erm, lost a few brain cells did we?

What one person finds attractive another can find repulsive. Why? Well, human beings are not blind slaves to biological forces, they have this thing called 'culture' and another thing called 'socialisation'.

Y'see?

There are websites which cater for men who find very fat women attractive. Are you going to deny that these men 'really' are attracted to such women?

Oswy.


Ever thought that perhaps different people are attracted to different things because they also have different genetics? No, we are not slaves to biological processes, but we are not entirely free of them either. I would suggest you demonstrate some knowledge of Biology/Evolution before continuing.

Anyways, not going to attempt to engage with you yet again, all you ever seem to do is throw out a stream of patronising 'I'm incapable of being wrong' bilge. I am capable of seeing an others point...I've yet to see you even acknowledge anothers point of view, short of using them as a springboard for your petty insults. No need for the first comment Oswy, and clearly demonstrates your level of maturity.
Reply 24
tehjonny
Ever thought that perhaps different people are attracted to different things because they also have different genetics? No, we are not slaves to biological processes, but we are not entirely free of them either. I would suggest you demonstrate some knowledge of Biology/Evolution before continuing.

Anyways, not going to attempt to engage with you yet again, all you ever seem to do is throw out a stream of patronising 'I'm incapable of being wrong' bilge. I am capable of seeing an others point...I've yet to see you even acknowledge anothers point of view, short of using them as a springboard for your petty insults. No need for the first comment Oswy, and clearly demonstrates your level of maturity.


I have no idea what you're arguing for to be honest. I'm saying that different people regard different things as 'attractive' and that this regard renders any attempt to define attractiveness objectively as an arbitrary exercise. Of course we are biological entities, but culture and socialisation allow us to move with some freedom, sometimes breathtaking freedom, away from that which conventional socio-evolutionary notions would have us believe. Check out Queer Theory, for example.

Oswy.
Reply 25
Scheherazade
Why is this? Because you find Swedish people more attractive?

Let's say I find Somali people more attractive/intelligent/better people (and I'd never make such a broad generalisation) does that mean I can wipe out all Swedish people?

And are you even trying to thinly veil your racism?

Just as an example, let's compare a group of black people with stereotypically blonde-haired blue-eyed aryans?



Because the Nazis get such an undeserved bad press.

Possibly it's that little genocide thing.



Now musical tastes should be bred out? Preferences in cars, clothes?

You're revealing the very reason that this is in no way practicable. People have different ideas of what is desirable/undesirable.



And who decides who these 'dregs' are?



I'd say this says more about your shallowness and narrow-minded view of what is attractive.

People have different tastes, and guess what? Sometimes people care about more than appearance OR intelligence. Sometime people appreciate things like personality, kindness, genorousity, faith, other attributes.


Your moral relativism is drastically under developed and the logical extension of such views is anarchy in which one person's view is as good as another. Where the Lord Chief Justice may think Ian Huntly should be locked up but he thinks its about time he was released. Well, one opinion has just as much value as another, so I suppose we'll have to let the child sex predator out. I mean who is it to say that paedophilia is wrong anyway? That's just another "rule" invented by a dominant section of society.

Moral relativism is, at the end of the day, a cop out from those hard decisions and objective facts that might possibly offend someone. It is an extreme political correctness that ensure in the future with nothing to believe in, liberalism wil die.

And for God's sake, Swedish people are more attractive than Somalians in average. They're also cleverer and more productive. I'm not saying these characteristics and inherent to the Aryan race (there's no such thing for a start) but in the here and now a judgement can be made. I don't really see myself as a racist because that is someone who sees unavoidable inequalities between races regardless of other factors. I'm more of a moral absolutist who believes the liberal Enlightenment values that orginated in Western Europe and are most evident in White societies today to be the best currently available to humanity and the path through which positive progress will be made.
BJ-Dubois
Your moral relativism is drastically under developed and the logical extension of such views is anarchy in which one person's view is as good as another. Where the Lord Chief Justice may think Ian Huntly should be locked up but he thinks its about time he was released. Well, one opinion has just as much value as another, so I suppose we'll have to let the child sex predator out. I mean who is it to say that paedophilia is wrong anyway? That's just another "rule" invented by a dominant section of society.


That is a complete cop-out! Please address my point and not one that you made up.

I'm not being a 'moral relativist' I think your opinion (that ugly/unintelligent people shouldn't procreate) is WRONG. What I'm saying is that attractiveness/prodictivity and most importantly moral worth cannot be judged to one person's standards. What makes you the fit person to judge everyone in the world? The case you mention proves my point that one person can't judge right and wrong, good and bad, attractive and unattractive for everybody on the face of the plnet.

Moral relativism is, at the end of the day, a cop out from those hard decisions and objective facts that might possibly offend someone. It is an extreme political correctness that ensure in the future with nothing to believe in, liberalism wil die.

And for God's sake, Swedish people are more attractive than Somalians in average. They're also cleverer and more productive.

Really? That's reasonable. Or, you know really arrogant. When you make these sweeping generalisations it's not only distateful it's arrogant because you assume that you are some how above people, to be able to judge what they are. Tell me: Are you 'on average' a better person than the odd 9 million Somalians currently living in the world?

I'm not saying these characteristics and inherent to the Aryan race (there's no such thing for a start) but in the here and now a judgement can be made. I don't really see myself as a racist because that is someone who sees unavoidable inequalities between races regardless of other factors. I'm more of a moral absolutist who believes the liberal Enlightenment values that orginated in Western Europe and are most evident in White societies today to be the best currently available to humanity and the path through which positive progress will be made.

When you say that one race of people is objectively 'better' than another you are being racist, it makes you a supremacist.

Yeah, I wish all you white folks good luck with that positive progress because I don't see much of it here.
Reply 27
Tell me: Are you 'on average' a better person than the odd 9 million Somalians currently living in the world?


Yes.

When you say that one race of people is objectively 'better' than another you are being racist, it makes you a supremacist.


I was unaware that the Swedes are a race. I argued on cultural rather than racial grounds. Although there is a clear correlation between the level of European culture (and therefore inevitably the white race) present in a nation and the success of said nation.
you know, apparently one time they did an experiment - they (i dunno who this mysterious "they is" but bear with me) did a poll asking which celebrities people found to be the most attractive.

then they asked people which parts in particular of these celebs people found most attractive - arms, eyes, mouth etc.

anyway they took all the most attractive parts of each male and each female celebrity, and they put them together to make what SHOULD have been the most attractive couple you could possible imagine.....

and the outcome was 2 extremely average people.

my point? well my point is that if two ugly people procreate - the sum of the chromosomes from each parent could very well be put together in such a way as to make an extremely attractive child.

you really can't tell how a baby is going to turn out.

so saying that ugly people should not reproduce is just daft.

as for stupid people - well that's another matter altogether. most stupid people don't even know how to raise a child properly anyway.
There was a report I read about last week on the BBC about how some scientists think that as we become more picky in the future, the human race will split into two 'species' - an elite race of tall, strong people with all the hallmarks of fertility, and an underclass of small ugly hobbits. I think the implication is that the the underclass would be poor. And probably live in the depths of the city where the sunlight doesn't reach because of the 3km high skyscrapers where the upper class have their penthouses. I also hope there are dinosaur robots.
I read that in a paper somewhere - it's gonna be like the Time Machine - with the Morlocks and the Eloi.
Reply 31
Oswy
given that attractiveness and intelligence are both arbitrarily constructed, there is no avoiding perceived variations, regardless of how much you try to 'breed' out what you don't like.

Besides, winners *only* exist because there are losers - it's the ideology that needs changing.

Go socialism!

Oswy.

in the grand scheme of things, you are absolutely correct, beauty and intelligence are only comparative, if everyone in the next generation got more beautiful/intelligent, the average quality of life/happiness would still be similar, standards of beauty/intelligence would also rise so the less fortunate by comparison would still suffer the same, i'm not suggesting selective breeding on mass scale here.
however, just consider one really really stupid/poor/uglyand deformed couple, shouldn't they maybe consider adoption or something?
Reply 32
Oswy
given that attractiveness and intelligence are both arbitrarily constructed, there is no avoiding perceived variations, regardless of how much you try to 'breed' out what you don't like.

Besides, winners *only* exist because there are losers - it's the ideology that needs changing.

Go socialism!

Oswy.



a little off topic i know, but could you please explain the difference between communism and socialism to me?
Reply 33
no
Oswy
Besides, winners *only* exist because there are losers - it's the ideology that needs changing.

Go socialism!


Yes, what we need is an ideology in which "really really stupid" people are of equal financial worth to the intelligent!
Reply 35
Oswy
given that attractiveness and intelligence are both arbitrarily constructed, there is no avoiding perceived variations, regardless of how much you try to 'breed' out what you don't like.


Perfect example: my nephew. He is adopted from two mentally handicapped people who got together in the nursing home. Despite his parents, he is the cutest and brightest kid I know. He makes me feel stupid sometimes.
cheesecakebobby
There was a report I read about last week on the BBC about how some scientists think that as we become more picky in the future, the human race will split into two 'species' - an elite race of tall, strong people with all the hallmarks of fertility, and an underclass of small ugly hobbits. I think the implication is that the the underclass would be poor. And probably live in the depths of the city where the sunlight doesn't reach because of the 3km high skyscrapers where the upper class have their penthouses. I also hope there are dinosaur robots.


I cant believe scientists came up with this dribble, its pathetic! They are essentially just guessing the outcome based upon there own judgements of other people in todays world.

Anyone who thinks the beauty is just on the outside obviously hasn't really understood themselves on the inside yet.
Is it really that unbelievable? How often do you see a stunningly attractive person with a very plain or repulsive partner?
I think that politically correct people should consider not procreating.
How about people too stupid to think things through before they say / type them?

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