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D&D Theology's "Ask About Christianity" Thread

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    (Original post by *Stargirl*)
    none?! then I don't believe you need it. These people are called by God and if they don't need to have it, we don't need to. thats what i think. although we should still want it, it is not a necesity
    What makes you think these people are called by God?

    Where does God call his people to wear strange clothes?
    To call a building God's house ?
    To carry big metal crosses?
    To be called "father"?

    .. .etc . . .I've told you what you need for salvation, if you want to just blindly follow these guys I can say no more.
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    Nowhere in the Bible does it say that speaking in tongues is a prerequisite for salvation, nor that it is a better way of spreading His Word.
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    Am I right in thinking (and it's been a while since I read the bible with this question in mind so my memory might be a little off) that the only explicit mention of "tongues" as NJA means is in the pentecostal story where the apostles recieve the spirit and with it the power to talk in all languages. When they recieve this gift tongues of fire decend from heaven.

    The later refrences to the gifts of the spirit if I remember correctly are all qualified by the words "may recieve" and also the gift of tongues is not explicitly mentioned but rather a more general gift which could if you really wanted it to could be interpreted as tongues but could just as easily refer to eloquance or skill in preaching. Given that the biblical precident would indicate that to recieve the gift of tongues you need fire from heaven it seems a little unlikely that tongues is a requirement for salvation.
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    (Original post by NJA)
    What makes you think these people are called by God?

    Where does God call his people to wear strange clothes?
    To call a building God's house ?
    To carry big metal crosses?
    To be called "father"?

    .. .etc . . .I've told you what you need for salvation, if you want to just blindly follow these guys I can say no more.
    They say so and having devoted their life for God they will have a close relationship with Him. Saints are called by God aren't they, if not they would not be able to perform miracles in His name, which is part of what you need to be to become a Saint. God calls them to be what we call Saints, is my opinion.
    I think its excellent to follow example from these people, they are very close to God and know so so so much more than I do! They bring God's message across to people, God works through them.
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    This is something that I asked a Christian at my college when she was distributing gospels and I didn't really receive a satisfactory answer, so could someone please elucidate:

    There is an archaeological site to the south of the dead sea which some believe to be the city of Sodom. It is estimated to have had a population of between 600 and 1200. Assuming a population demographic similar to that of a current LEDC, about 9% of the population would have been below age 5. Even if we take the lower end of the population size, that's 600/100 x 9= 54 children. This doesn't take into account unborn children.

    Given that children under the age of 5 are spectacularly unlikely to have committed any grave sin, how is it possible to reconcile the notion of a loving, merciful God with one who murdered at least 54 (probably more than double that as I have erred on the low side) innocent children?

    Thanks.
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    Can't you just ask, how can a loving God be reconciled with the reality of seemingly pointless suffering, rather than relying on some dubious archaelogical site? Because I bet you that's what some of the Christians would aim at, as opposed to your actual, very valid, question.
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    (Original post by Childermass)
    . . . Given that children under the age of 5 are spectacularly unlikely to have committed any grave sin, how is it possible to reconcile the notion of a loving, merciful God with one who murdered at least 54 (probably more than double that as I have erred on the low side) innocent children?
    God knew their hearts, just like he knew Moses when he was a baby and arranged for his deliverance.
    God had already shown mercy by giving warning since the beginning of time. When people reject his mercy and impose their horrible dark thoughts on their children he has every right to make an example of them. Like the people of Sodom, you also are missing the point.

    Jude:7: Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.
    :8: Likewise also these filthy dreamers defile the flesh, despise dominion, and speak evil of dignities.
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    (Original post by NathanL)
    Can't you just ask, how can a loving God be reconciled with the reality of seemingly pointless suffering, rather than relying on some dubious archaelogical site? Because I bet you that's what some of the Christians would aim at, as opposed to your actual, very valid, question.
    Surely if they believe the word of the bible, then sodom and gomorra existed. If they existed, then given that they were cities then they must have had a good few hundred people, so the point stands even if the archaeological evidence turns out to be not up to scratch.

    I would ask about pointless suffering, but I decided to start small and work up when it comes to understanding this religion.


    (Original post by NJA)
    God knew their hearts, just like he knew Moses when he was a baby and arranged for his deliverance.
    God had already shown mercy by giving warning since the beginning of time. When people reject his mercy and impose their horrible dark thoughts on their children he has every right to make an example of them. Like the people of Sodom, you also are missing the point.
    Was that before or after he chucked Adam and Eve out of Eden for curiosity and cursed every women with cramps? :rolleyes:

    Seriously though, how can you justify the slaughter of innocents? If God is omnipotent, then why didn't he just strike down only the wicked insted of killing all of them? The only example it sets is that punishing the guilty is more important than protecting the innocent, something quite out of line with Jesus's teachings of forgiveness.
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    [QUOTE=Childermass]Seriously though, how can you justify the slaughter of innocents? If God is omnipotent, then why didn't he just strike down only the wicked insted of killing all of them? The only example it sets is that punishing the guilty is more important than protecting the innocent, something quite out of line with Jesus's teachings of forgiveness.[/QUOTE]
    You judge children to be innocent but you cannot see their heart. God says people do according to their upbringing so these children would have evil already. If any were different God would have delivered those individuals as he always does.

    God is here consistent with what he says ewlsewhere and he is right.
    Jesus forgives you now, but will also judge the unrepentant. Will you be with Lot who escaped God-rejection, or the Sodomites after that day ??
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    (Original post by Childermass)
    Seriously though, how can you justify the slaughter of innocents? If God is omnipotent, then why didn't he just strike down only the wicked insted of killing all of them? The only example it sets is that punishing the guilty is more important than protecting the innocent, something quite out of line with Jesus's teachings of forgiveness.
    I don't think the idea of God srtiking down at all compatible with Jesus' teachings on love and forgiveness; this could be just one of those teachings in the old Testament that presents quite a dichotomous nature of God; one that is vengeful and not all loving. In answer to your question I just don't believe in the story of Sodom.
    (Original post by NJA)
    You judge children to be innocent but you cannot see their heart. God says people do according to their upbringing so these children would have evil already. If any were different God would have delivered those individuals as he always does.
    There is an episode in Luke 13 where Jesus is asked if the eighteen people who died when the tower of Shiloam fell on them died as a punishment, because they were sinfull, and Jesus replies no; they were no more guilty than anyone else. This is good enough for me, I don't see why it's not good enough for you.
    As Childermass says, how can you believe in a God who would intentionally kill children, whether they were innocent or not? And to say this is consistent with the notion of a loving God is absurd.
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    (Original post by Galatea)
    I don't think the idea of God srtiking down at all compatible with Jesus' teachings on love and forgiveness; this could be just one of those teachings in the old Testament that presents quite a dichotomous nature of God; one that is vengeful and not all loving. In answer to your question I just don't believe in the story of Sodom.
    Thanks for answering.

    I agree that the story of Sodom may not be accurate, but what about the great flood?
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    (NJA you do NOT have to have tongues to have the holy spirit...my friend replied to me with the passages from the Bible and using her Bible knowledge. this is what she said about the gift of faith..which someone was having a problem understanding(inculding me!) "Here Paul talks about the gift of faith, whilst we all have faith (that's why we are Christians) some people are blessed with a gift of faith that allows them to support others and rely on God in particularly difficult situations etc". If you want to know why its not the case, with tongues, then msg me and ill send you the email she sent me...very detailed)
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    What would bother you the most, if your son turned out to be gay, or if he turned out to be Jewish?
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    i don't even know if i want children! ...only 17 you know :P
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    (Original post by *Stargirl*)
    (NJA you do NOT have to have tongues to have the holy spirit...my friend replied to me with the passages from the Bible and using her Bible knowledge. this is what she said about the gift of faith..which someone was having a problem understanding(inculding me!) "Here Paul talks about the gift of faith, whilst we all have faith (that's why we are Christians) some people are blessed with a gift of faith that allows them to support others and rely on God in particularly difficult situations etc". If you want to know why its not the case, with tongues, then msg me and ill send you the email she sent me...very detailed)
    Do you believe this complicated yarn she spun you ?

    Look at what she says:-
    "some people are blessed with a gift of faith that allows them to support others
    and rely on God in particularly difficult situations"

    So, other Christians (sons of God!) have some insipid faith that doesn't allow
    them to support others and they are not the sort of christian that can rely on God
    "in particularly difficult situations".

    It doesn't surprise me that you are so quick to accept this junk as God's truth !

    "the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their
    own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; And
    they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables."
    (2 Tim.4v3-4)

    I'll state the truth again:-
    1Co:1:4: I thank my God always on your behalf, for the grace of God
    which is given you by Jesus Christ;
    :5: That in every thing ye are enriched by him, in all utterance,
    and in all knowledge;

    2Cor. 5:17: Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature:
    old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

    2Peter 1:1: Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them
    that have obtained like precious faith with us


    ALL that have received the Spirit of GOD have the faith
    of Jesus Christ, and the mind/knowledge of Christ and his love & power.
    Satan can't stand that message, it's too good, so he sets up churches
    that teach people to doubt it.

    2Cor. 11:3: But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ . . .

    :13: For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.
    :14: And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
    :15: Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.
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    (Original post by NJA)
    *Stuff*
    Hasn't it struck you that none of those quotes are even vaguely relevant to your very specific and IMO unsupportable scriptural interpretation.
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    NJA the gift of faith, as my friend put it, is a gift which allows you to trust in God in difficult situations and to be able to support others. And as the Bible said, this is a GIFT! Along with the other gifts. All christians have faith, as we are christians! read what she said again
    In this day and age people think that christians with gifts are "better" christians. not true at all. God gives us gifts according to his plan for us.
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    (Original post by *Stargirl*)
    NJA the gift of faith, as my friend put it, is a gift which allows you to trust in God in difficult situations and to be able to support others. And as the Bible said, this is a GIFT! Along with the other gifts. All christians have faith, as we are christians! read what she said again
    In this day and age people think that christians with gifts are "better" christians. not true at all. God gives us gifts according to his plan for us.
    Agreed, *Stargirl*.

    The danger with thinking that unless one speaks in tongues, one is a lesser Christian is much the same as some of these "Toronto experience" productions that do the rounds in provincial churches.

    The congregation fall down at the touch of the minister's hand on their forehead. I have heard some Christians say that they feign falling as they don't want to be different, and others who get upset because they have not fallen down - which, to them implies they are lesser Christians.

    So much nonsense...:mad:
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    (Original post by *Stargirl*)
    NJA the gift of faith, as my friend put it, is a gift which allows you to trust in God in difficult situations and to be able to support others. And as the Bible said, this is a GIFT! Along with the other gifts. All christians have faith, as we are christians! read what she said again
    In this day and age people think that christians with gifts are "better" christians. not true at all. God gives us gifts according to his plan for us.
    So your friend makes a distinction between faith that all christians have, and some extra gift of faith that some christians get.
    Does she do the same with knowledge, wisdom and discernment (also listed in the passage) ?

    i.e. there is a distinction between knowledge of salvation (spiritual understanding) that all christians have, and extra knowledge that some don't get ?

    Presumably she does because without any knowledge you don't know what to believe.

    But, when it comes to speaking in tongues, you and her refuse to make the same distinction !!
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    I'm not going to attempt to properly answer that sodom question, but looking at it from a practical point of view - who's going to look after the children? Won't they have a singularly miserable existence living with their entire families killed, their homes destroyed, out in the wild? Any child as innocent as you say would be too young to care for themselves - how would they survive? If they did survive, they might feel a grudge against Lot and seek their vengeance (and these things can go on causing trouble forever eg. palestine/israel, or the retaliation killings in iraq) or they might even carry on the perverse inclinations of their parents (however, i admit, if that were the case, they could hardly be called innocent). Might not it be more merciful (certainly more practical) to kill them along with the rest of the town? God is not unjust - he judges according what to what people know (Romans 2) and he knows everyone's hearts and secrets - if they were that young and innocent, i think it likely that they would go to heaven.

    I have a question of my own: what's with the all the patriarchs (is that the correct term?) living to extremely ripe old ages - like hundreds of years - in the old testament? Is that actually biologically possible? Also, I think I read something about old mesopotamian texts featuring very long-lived rulers.

    If you tell me that it shouldn't be taken literally, can you say why (i mean, these are actual figures - if you reckon they're symbolic, how come?), if you tell me that it should be taken literally, can you reconcile this (at all - even a tiny reason) with the natural world, science etc?

    (i'm going to bed now but i'll be back.)
Updated: August 5, 2013
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