What does TSR think of Men's Rights Activists?
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Original post by william walker
Men kill themselves for all kinds of reasons. Mainly money.
What? Are you talking about poverty? (Sorry, it seems weirdly worded.)
Original post by XcitingStuart
What? Are you talking about poverty? (Sorry, it seems weirdly worded.)
No I talking about people being in debt or having money and losing it.
Original post by MenAreHumanToo
Hello,
I want to know what your opinions of MRAs and why you have come to this conclusion
ty
I want to know what your opinions of MRAs and why you have come to this conclusion
ty
You mean feminists? I agree with them in that there should be complete equality between the genders- I think it's unfair how males can't express their emotions as openly as females without being mocked
(edited 8 years ago)
It sounds reasonable in theory, but in practice... pretty grim and misogynistic stuff.
Slightly unrelated but relevant - I wouldn't really take much issue with the PUA subculture in theory either - if only it wasn't tainted by crude, tasteless misogyny.
Slightly unrelated but relevant - I wouldn't really take much issue with the PUA subculture in theory either - if only it wasn't tainted by crude, tasteless misogyny.
Original post by Jess_x
You mean feminists? I agree with them in that there should be complete equality between the genders- I think it's unfair how males can't express their emotions as openly as females without being mocked
Feminism advocates womens rights though
Original post by MenAreHumanToo
Feminism advocates womens rights though
No, as I've always understood it, it's about both men and women. This Forbes article seems to state so, anyway...
Original post by Jess_x
No, as I've always understood it, it's about both men and women. This Forbes article seems to state so, anyway...
How many male problems have feminists actually dealt with? None.
Why do you think that gender quotas only focus on male dominated industries?
How many feminists have you heard saying: We need more men in nursing, or we need quotas for men in veterinary medicine.
Original post by IamLiquid
How many male problems have feminists actually dealt with? None.
Why do you think that gender quotas only focus on male dominated industries?
How many feminists have you heard saying: We need more men in nursing, or we need quotas for men in veterinary medicine.
Why do you think that gender quotas only focus on male dominated industries?
How many feminists have you heard saying: We need more men in nursing, or we need quotas for men in veterinary medicine.
Admittedly, there is a bias towards females' rights. But, the male-dominated industries that you refer to are harder to gain entry to than female-dominated industries like nursing or veterinary medicine (which has shifted from being male-dominated to much more equal of late); so it's a case of breaking an educational glass ceiling for women that otherwise doesn't exist for men.
About issues, where men are objectified "We don't do anything to diminish the meaningful economic and reproductive advantages men enjoy" (New York magazine) but the same doesn't apply to women. But, yeah, feminists haven't dealt with many male problems.. : /
Oh my days there is so much wrong here.
First, the person who holds Elliott Rodger up as the reason they dislike MRAs. That's like saying I dislike feminists because Ted Bundy was one. Elliott Rodger had about as much connection to the MRM as Charles Manson did to feminism. None. There is no evidence to suggest that he even spoke to any MRAs. He was a member of PUAhate - an anti pick up artist community. Incel - an involuntary celibacy group. And subscribed to the Young Turks. Don't just repeat what you read on the internet.
Jess - "You mean feminists? I agree with them in that there should be complete equality between the genders- I think it's unfair how males can't express their emotions as openly as females without being mocked"
Trouble expressing emotion may be a problem for some men, but it is far away from being a big problem facing men as a whole. Men and women in general express emotions differently, and so thinking that men would benefit from expressing their emotions more like women is misguided. Also a little bit sexist.
The bigger problems are lack of resources for male victims of DV and Sexual Violence. Male genital cutting (30000 male babies have their genitals surgically altered without consent or suitable anaesthetic every year in the UK), family court reform, the criminal sentencing gap (men serve far longer sentences than women who commit the exact same crime), reproduction rights, boys being left behind in education and enrolling at university less. All stuff that needs addressing, depression and suicide amongst men is at ridiculously high levels. Don't tell men they need to express their feelings differently, listen to what they are saying when they talk.
"veterinary medicine (which has shifted from being male-dominated to much more equal of late)"
You have the oddest definition of 'more equal'. Currently, practising vets are 60% female and more than 80% of new graduates are female and 85% of current male vets are planning on retiring within 5 years. It's odd that you see heavy female domination as 'equal' and male domination as domination.
First, the person who holds Elliott Rodger up as the reason they dislike MRAs. That's like saying I dislike feminists because Ted Bundy was one. Elliott Rodger had about as much connection to the MRM as Charles Manson did to feminism. None. There is no evidence to suggest that he even spoke to any MRAs. He was a member of PUAhate - an anti pick up artist community. Incel - an involuntary celibacy group. And subscribed to the Young Turks. Don't just repeat what you read on the internet.
Jess - "You mean feminists? I agree with them in that there should be complete equality between the genders- I think it's unfair how males can't express their emotions as openly as females without being mocked"
Trouble expressing emotion may be a problem for some men, but it is far away from being a big problem facing men as a whole. Men and women in general express emotions differently, and so thinking that men would benefit from expressing their emotions more like women is misguided. Also a little bit sexist.
The bigger problems are lack of resources for male victims of DV and Sexual Violence. Male genital cutting (30000 male babies have their genitals surgically altered without consent or suitable anaesthetic every year in the UK), family court reform, the criminal sentencing gap (men serve far longer sentences than women who commit the exact same crime), reproduction rights, boys being left behind in education and enrolling at university less. All stuff that needs addressing, depression and suicide amongst men is at ridiculously high levels. Don't tell men they need to express their feelings differently, listen to what they are saying when they talk.
"veterinary medicine (which has shifted from being male-dominated to much more equal of late)"
You have the oddest definition of 'more equal'. Currently, practising vets are 60% female and more than 80% of new graduates are female and 85% of current male vets are planning on retiring within 5 years. It's odd that you see heavy female domination as 'equal' and male domination as domination.
Pointless.
Feminism is for men too. A lot of the issues affecting men, such as child custody and high suicide rates, stem from living in a patriarchy.
Feminism isn't anti-men. I don't blame men. I think most men are pretty cool. I blame institutionalized sexism that, like it or not, everyone grows up exposed to.
However, having said that, I think the fact that in some places you can still be stoned to death just for being a woman is 1000x's more important than men not being able to cry and women being called sluts for sleeping around.
Western feminism is pretty lame. Intersectional feminism, however, is for all.
Feminism is for men too. A lot of the issues affecting men, such as child custody and high suicide rates, stem from living in a patriarchy.
Feminism isn't anti-men. I don't blame men. I think most men are pretty cool. I blame institutionalized sexism that, like it or not, everyone grows up exposed to.
However, having said that, I think the fact that in some places you can still be stoned to death just for being a woman is 1000x's more important than men not being able to cry and women being called sluts for sleeping around.
Western feminism is pretty lame. Intersectional feminism, however, is for all.
(edited 8 years ago)
Original post by battycatlady
Pointless.
Feminism is for men too. A lot of the issues affecting men, such as child custody and high suicide rates, stem from living in a patriarchy.
Feminism is for men too. A lot of the issues affecting men, such as child custody and high suicide rates, stem from living in a patriarchy.
you have no idea how many times I've heard this insufferable lie. the narrative of modern/radical feminism is patriarchy, rape culture, objectification, etc - these all point to men as the villains and women as the victims. how are men *not* the perpetrators of injustice in a "patriarchy", for example? that word "patriarchy" is a gendered concept
Feminism isn't anti-men. I don't blame men. I think most men are pretty cool. I blame institutionalized sexism that, like it or not, everyone grows up exposed to.
institutional sexism/misandry is more against men than women - men are constantly portrayed as stupid, violent or something else that's equally degrading, whereas women are usually portrayed as beautiful, responsible, smart, etc in the media. men are always assumed to be the aggressors in domestic violence cases when domestic violence is not a gendered issue. they're always assumed to be paedophiles when women are actually more likely to be paedophiles. I could go on.
However, having said that, I think the fact that in some places you can still be stoned to death just for being a woman is 1000x's more important than men not being able to cry and women being called sluts for sleeping around.
yes - let feminism exist in the countries where this is the case. not in the west where women, provably, have more legal rights than men and less legal responsibilities. no sane and reasonable society even needs to mention how wrong it is that people (not just women) are stoned for trivialities in the middle east.
Western feminism is pretty lame. Intersectional feminism, however, is for all.
oh great, you almost had it there...
(edited 8 years ago)
Original post by battycatlady
Pointless.
Feminism is for men too. A lot of the issues affecting men, such as child custody and high suicide rates, stem from living in a patriarchy.
Feminism is for men too. A lot of the issues affecting men, such as child custody and high suicide rates, stem from living in a patriarchy.
Child custody stems from Caroline Norton's (a feminist) Custody of Infants Act 1839 and later Victorian reforms to that act. It is laughable to take things done by feminism and led by women and say it is due to a patriarchy. And you know nothing of the reasons for high male suicide rates. You haven't actually posited how 'patriarchy' leads to suicide so I'm just going to assume you believe 'toxic masculinity' to be a thing.
Feminism isn't anti-men. I don't blame men. I think most men are pretty cool. I blame institutionalized sexism that, like it or not, everyone grows up exposed to.
I suggest you look at the actions of actual feminist groups. In particular Women's Aid and Refuge who monopolize the Domestic Violence industry with a NATIONAL Domestic Violence helpline that refuses to help male victims. They lobby against and deny the existence of male victims for ideological and financial reasons. Domestic violence is a problem made ten times worse when your existence as a victim is denied by those in control. Look up the Duluth Model.
However, having said that, I think the fact that in some places you can still be stoned to death just for being a woman is 1000x's more important than men not being able to cry and women being called sluts for sleeping around.
I think that boys being forced to fight in wars at the age of 14 is important. I think that male migrant workers being used as slave labour and dying by the 1000s in the Middle East is important. I think men being stoned for the very same crimes as women is important. I also happen to think that the legal inequalities between men and women in the UK are important and should be addressed.
Obviously, nowhere in the world are you stoned "just for being a woman".
Western feminism is pretty lame. Intersectional feminism, however, is for all.
Intersectionality still reduces people to a shared phenotype rather than individuals.
(edited 8 years ago)
Both men's rights activism and feminism need to go. They aren't comparable, however. MRA tends to look purely at facts and numbers and the lawful issues affecting men in marriage, divorce, child support, etc.
Feminism, on the other hand, is about absolutely liberating women from taste and decency to allow them carte blange, for any action they take as deemed 'OK' because it is her choice she is empowered to make it. Women are infantalised by feminism.
Feminism, on the other hand, is about absolutely liberating women from taste and decency to allow them carte blange, for any action they take as deemed 'OK' because it is her choice she is empowered to make it. Women are infantalised by feminism.
Original post by Mister Morality
Both men's rights activism and feminism need to go. They aren't comparable, however. MRA tends to look purely at facts and numbers and the lawful issues affecting men in marriage, divorce, child support, etc..
How do we alter the legal inequality faced by men without Men's Rights Groups though? They are the only groups interested in changing things.
When it comes to:
- The right to equality before the law. Either as victim or perpetrator.
- The right to genital integrity.
- The right to equal reproductive rights (parental surrender).
- The right to equal education opportunities.
- Parental rights
How do you expect these things to change without groups applying pressure?
Original post by danmurph
How do we alter the legal inequality faced by men without Men's Rights Groups though? They are the only groups interested in changing things.
When it comes to:
- The right to equality before the law. Either as victim or perpetrator.
- The right to genital integrity.
- The right to equal reproductive rights (parental surrender).
- The right to equal education opportunities.
- Parental rights
How do you expect these things to change without groups applying pressure?
When it comes to:
- The right to equality before the law. Either as victim or perpetrator.
- The right to genital integrity.
- The right to equal reproductive rights (parental surrender).
- The right to equal education opportunities.
- Parental rights
How do you expect these things to change without groups applying pressure?
I think the MRM should focus on getting certain laws abolished or amended, rather than attempting to opt into the victim narrative that feminists indulge. For example, focus on the divorce laws instead of talking about "societal pressures of divorce".
Original post by Mister Morality
I think the MRM should focus on getting certain laws abolished or amended, rather than attempting to opt into the victim narrative that feminists indulge. For example, focus on the divorce laws instead of talking about "societal pressures of divorce".
If you look at the more well known MR organizations, such as Fathers 4 Justice or Mankind and even Justice for Men and Boys, they really only concentrate on legal issues. I think most in the Men's Rights Movement don't really care for victim politics. That isn't to say that we're not standing up for victims of certain situations, but there's very little about whole groups being oppressed and victimized by unseen social forces. Unfortunately though, men are the demonstrable victims of legal inequalities.
I'm not sure about there being any social pressures of divorce. You just bend over and pray for mercy. But a lot of the social pressure stuff can go suck a dick. I've never been a particularly masculine man, I knit in public and have detailed discussions about my feelings, but its never really been a massive problem. I've never felt unaccepted by society because of it, I don't have any desire for society to bend to my will.
Original post by Ndella
Unnecessary
So how are we going to alter the legal inequalities faced by men and boys and who is going to do it?
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