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Original post by thehistorybore
I believe there is a GCSE unit that is based around the war on terror, and goes up to 2007. As a historian, the prospect of such a course being taught as History terrifies me. How can you ever be accurate/distanced when the issues are so recent?

Indeed, that is what I'm getting at. Younger students often lack the maturity to treat the subject with respect.

I haven't read any fiction books on the holocaust, but I can't imagine that they would romanticise it? Surely they would only serve to present the horror?


2007 should not be part of the History syllabus! There should be a minimum grace period, say for example, 25 years, before events can be part of a History course. With something as recent as 2007, it would be very hard to be objective.I'm not a Historian (you may have guessed!) but i would say you can't study a topic as History unless you can distance yourself from it emotionally.

Romanticise was the wrong word. I mean ones like The Boy in Striped Pyjamas which don't really show the horror of it (although that is because it is from a child's perspective) or The Boys From Berlin / Dominance which were set after the Holocaust was over, but completely changed the ending - in one, the Germans won the war and are victorious over all of Europe, in the other, the Holocaust is seen as almost an embarrassing event that all but one Nazi Hunter have tried to forget. Ones which change the events or play down the 'darker' side.
Reply 41
Original post by boods8897
For most people know the Holocaust is just something that happened in the past and is unlikely to happen again whereas terrorism is a very real problem that's only getting worse... I'm guessing most of the people that are travelling to Syria now don't really know what they're getting themselves into, so education around the effects of terrorism / extremist indoctrination could make more sense. Prevention is better than cure after all :/


The unlikely to happen again comment is complacent, Cambodia 1975-1979 came close in being organised (to a degree), it was not just malnutrition and disease, it was systematic, in the same way the Holocaust was systematic though not exclusively by gas/ similar.

Has mankind moved on in the last 35 years or so that such an event is now impossible?
Original post by boods8897
2007 should not be part of the History syllabus! There should be a minimum grace period, say for example, 25 years, before events can be part of a History course. With something as recent as 2007, it would be very hard to be objective.I'm not a Historian (you may have guessed!) but i would say you can't study a topic as History unless you can distance yourself from it emotionally.

Romanticise was the wrong word. I mean ones like The Boy in Striped Pyjamas which don't really show the horror of it (although that is because it is from a child's perspective) or The Boys From Berlin / Dominance which were set after the Holocaust was over, but completely changed the ending - in one, the Germans won the war and are victorious over all of Europe, in the other, the Holocaust is seen as almost an embarrassing event that all but one Nazi Hunter have tried to forget. Ones which change the events or play down the 'darker' side.


Indeed, I would even argue that after only about 50 years can a subject be reasonably be studied as 'history'. That's exactly the case; history is about distance, objectivity and debate, and this can't be achieved with something so recent.

I have read The Boy in Striped Pyjamas, and I certainly would regard it as being respectful; it presents the scale of there horror in a uniquely humanising fashion. Cant say I've read the latter two, however, but again, it would always be difficult to present something as emotionally charged as the holocaust properly.
Original post by DJKL
The unlikely to happen again comment is complacent, Cambodia 1975-1979 came close in being organised (to a degree), it was not just malnutrition and disease, it was systematic, in the same way the Holocaust was systematic though not exclusively by gas/ similar.

Has mankind moved on in the last 35 years or so that such an event is now impossible?


I never said that I agree with that idea, just that it is a common mindset nowadays and so people may become more disaffected when studying things such as the Holocaust. I would sincerely hope that mankind will progress sufficiently to eliminate the probability of any such event happening again, but I can see that we still have a long way to go before we reach that time.
Reply 44
Original post by thehistorybore
Indeed, I would even argue that after only about 50 years can a subject be reasonably be studied as 'history'. That's exactly the case; history is about distance, objectivity and debate, and this can't be achieved with something so recent.

I have read The Boy in Striped Pyjamas, and I certainly would regard it as being respectful; it presents the scale of there horror in a uniquely humanising fashion. Cant say I've read the latter two, however, but again, it would always be difficult to present something as emotionally charged as the holocaust properly.


The catch about fifty years is that the input of the participants can be lost, and collected oral histories I believe do contribute to our understanding. In addition looking at how an event from say 1945 was viewed in say 1980 and comparing that with how it is viewed today in 2015 can possibly assist our understanding 1980 itself as well as the original event from 1945.

However, apart from arguing over a few years (I think 30-35 would be better) I do agree that objectivity, which is paramount in my opinion, is better served with the passage of time. Also the earlier histories are not set in stone, they do no real harm (hopefully) and can be later revised.

Having been reading histories for over forty years, observing the style changes is itself interesting- I still own a European History textbook by Southgate I used for Higher History; memorising half the royal families of Europe, not a pleasant way to learn and totally useless as I have forgotten most of them now.
Reply 45
Original post by boods8897
I never said that I agree with that idea, just that it is a common mindset nowadays and so people may become more disaffected when studying things such as the Holocaust. I would sincerely hope that mankind will progress sufficiently to eliminate the probability of any such event happening again, but I can see that we still have a long way to go before we reach that time.


My apologies.
Original post by DJKL
The catch about fifty years is that the input of the participants can be lost, and collected oral histories I believe do contribute to our understanding. In addition looking at how an event from say 1945 was viewed in say 1980 and comparing that with how it is viewed today in 2015 can possibly assist our understanding 1980 itself as well as the original event from 1945.

However, apart from arguing over a few years (I think 30-35 would be better) I do agree that objectivity, which is paramount in my opinion, is better served with the passage of time. Also the earlier histories are not set in stone, they do no real harm (hopefully) and can be later revised.

Having been reading histories for over forty years, observing the style changes is itself interesting- I still own a European History textbook by Southgate I used for Higher History; memorising half the royal families of Europe, not a pleasant way to learn and totally useless as I have forgotten most of them now.


There's nothing to stop one from collocations evidence and sources, but I don't feel that a valid conclusion can be made from the sources until long after the event. For example, Carr's book on Germany up to 1990 states directly in the preface that the latter parts on the reunification of Germany cannot be completely accurate, as that section was written as the Berlin Wall fell.

But then, with history, one has forever to review it in, so it's not as if historians are in a terrible hurry to study everything as it happens.

And indeed, that is not a pleasant way to study history; it's all about debate, not learning facts.
Original post by DraftMeteor
He who forgets history is doomed to repeat it.


Why do I need a crystal ball when I can have a history book.
Original post by thehistorybore
I have, and I thought it an interesting question to ask TSR, who were sadly less open in their views, and everyone has come back with the same response. Oh well.

This point is the essence of what everyone else has said, but from the experience of being taught it, and a member of the class openly exclaiming how boring it was to my teacher, I've always thought it a difficult thing to teach properly, and give a respectful account that conveys the extent of the horrors.

It should be taught, mainly as a lesson of what civilised people are capable of doing.
Also to counter the increasing amount of holocaust denying loons.
Original post by MatureStudent36
It should be taught, mainly as a lesson of what civilised people are capable of doing.
Also to counter the increasing amount of holocaust denying loons.


Are they increasing?
Original post by thehistorybore
Are they increasing?

There seems to be an increasing number of peolle posting holicaust denial threads on here.

Option 1. Tinfoil hat wearing conspiracy theory.
Option 2. Increase in holicaust denial seen from Muslim areas in support of their Palestinian brethren as they know it upsets the Israelis.
Option 3. The atypical anti Semitic crao being rolls out again.

Worringly, as things like the holocaust become a distant memory with fewer survivors around each year, holcaust denial becomes easier with the passage of time and some rather proffesional looking websites and YouTube clips questioning its existence in the first place.

We have for example one rather competent holicaust denier called cycle of spin. Either an accomplished troll or something more sinister, he could be rather persuasive if you had no understanding of the holocaust. Somebody with a basic understanding can laugh him out of the thread though.

Edit

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/feb/05/antisemitic-attacks-uk-community-security-trust-britain-jewish-population
(edited 8 years ago)
Original post by MatureStudent36
There seems to be an increasing number of peolle posting holicaust denial threads on here.

Option 1. Tinfoil hat wearing conspiracy theory.
Option 2. Increase in holicaust denial seen from Muslim areas in support of their Palestinian brethren as they know it upsets the Israelis.
Option 3. The atypical anti Semitic crao being rolls out again.

Worringly, as things like the holocaust become a distant memory with fewer survivors around each year, holcaust denial becomes easier with the passage of time and some rather proffesional looking websites and YouTube clips questioning its existence in the first place.

We have for example one rather competent holicaust denier called cycle of spin. Either an accomplished troll or something more sinister, he could be rather persuasive if you had no understanding of the holocaust. Somebody with a basic understanding can laugh him out of the thread though.

Edit

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/feb/05/antisemitic-attacks-uk-community-security-trust-britain-jewish-population


That's actually very interesting to read. I'll look out for cycle of spin when I see he/she/it
Original post by thehistorybore
That's actually very interesting to read. I'll look out for cycle of spin when I see he/she/it


He'll make some rather dubious statements about only 300k killed, zyklon b was used to combat typhoid outbreaks, non use of gas chambers, U.S. Military post mortems etc.

To somebody with little historical understanding they can seem quite compelling. Unless of course you realise that he's talking complete. B0ll0cks
No, it shouldn't be taught. The focus on Nazism in the curriculum at the exclusion of the crimes of Marxism is about politics, and absolutely nothing to do 'morality'.

Why do people think the left get away with so much blatant and virulent racism? It's because their crimes are never exposed. This is a dangerous double standard. If holocaust is to be taught, it must be taught along with other genocides, such as those committed in Soviet Union, Mao China, Cambodia etc.

These genocides were much worse than holocaust.
(edited 8 years ago)
Original post by MatureStudent36
He'll make some rather dubious statements about only 300k killed, zyklon b was used to combat typhoid outbreaks, non use of gas chambers, U.S. Military post mortems etc.

To somebody with little historical understanding they can seem quite compelling. Unless of course you realise that he's talking complete. B0ll0cks

I gather he has been banned.
You can't ignore history.
Original post by thehistorybore
I gather he has been banned.


He will probably be back. He's had many identities in the past such as refuse_censor, SpikeyTeeth and s_o_b, and always been banned.

Posted from TSR Mobile
Original post by ageshallnot
He will probably be back. He's had many identities in the past such as refuse_censor, SpikeyTeeth and s_o_b, and always been banned.

Posted from TSR Mobile


Goodness, I do wonder where people find the energy/bother to keep using TSR as a medium to express their offensive views. Why doesn't he/she/it try somewhere else?
it is so important to pass on the message of Shoah to future generations. otherwise it will happen again.
you can see from the bestial behaviour of "ISIS" towards the Yazidis that the veil of decency is only paper thin.
Original post by thehistorybore
Goodness, I do wonder where people find the energy/bother to keep using TSR as a medium to express their offensive views. Why doesn't he/she/it try somewhere else?


Time on their hands. Do you know anybody who would befriend somebody who believes in holocaust denial?

It would be like knowing a friendly kiddie fiddler or people trafficker.

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