Scotland could go independent by 2020 claims SNPs Westminster leader
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Original post by flibber
That's true (considering the given last week's United States Supreme Court rulings), but while they never seemed to define a 'political generation' explicitly, but it was clearly used by the SNP last year to create a false sense of urgency to try and snatch some votes for the Yes campaign.
It could be that a generation has been reduced in perceived term to match the reduction in attention span of the average UK citizen.
To use another slightly apt political quotation, maybe "The wind of change is blowing through this continent (read country). Whether we like it or not, this growth of national consciousness is a political fact" Of course it it is we will be able to " feel the hand of history upon our shoulder with respect to this".
But of course my real favourite has to when Uncle Jim Sillars was let out for a walkabout and briefly showed the lizards lurking within their SNP suits.
Mr Sillars said:
“The No camp fear-mongering has had an effect on me – instead of retiring on September 19, I am staying in. This referendum is about power, and when we get a Yes majority, we will use that power for a day of reckoning with BP and the banks.
The heads of these companies are rich men, in cahoots with a rich English Tory Prime Minister, to keep Scotland’s poor poorer through lies and distortions. The power they have now to subvert our democracy will come to an end with a Yes.
BP, in an independent Scotland, will need to learn the meaning of nationalisation, in part or in whole, as it has in other countries who have not been as soft as we have forced to be.If it wants into the ‘monster fields’ in the areas west of Shetland, it will have to learn to bend the knee to a greater power – us, the sovereign people of Scotland. We will be the masters of the oil fields, not BP or any other of the majors.If Bob Dudley thinks this is mere rhetoric, just let him wait. It is sovereign power that counts. We will have it, he will not.
As for the bankers. Your casino days, rescued by socialisation of your liabilities while you waltz off with the profits, will be over. You will be split between retail and investment, and if your greed takes the latter down, there will be no rescue.
You believe in the market, in future you will live with its discipline. Fail will mean failure.
As for Standard Life, it will be required by new employment laws to give two years' warning of any redundancies, and reveal to the trade unions its financial reasons for relocation to any country outside of Scotland, and the costs involved.
It has never crossed the minds of our compliant Unionist media, especially the BBC, to ask the chief executive what his costings are on his proposed moves.
As for John Lewis, the question is whether the senior management consulted the ‘partners’ or took instructions from Cameron? Another question our supine BBC did not ask. There is now talk of boycott, and if it happens it will be a management own-goal.
What kind of people do these companies think we are? They will find out."
Jim is now running courses in , How to win friends and influence people", he certainly influenced a fair few employees of the mentioned entities, hardly forgot anyone worth talking about.
Original post by Stiff Little Fingers
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/SNP/11704739/Scotland-could-go-independent-before-next-election-SNPs-Westminster-leader-suggests.html
Given the recent oil reports, would independence be a viable move, but beyond that given how recently the independence referendum was, should the SNP be allowed to try and force another one?
Posted from TSR Mobile
Given the recent oil reports, would independence be a viable move, but beyond that given how recently the independence referendum was, should the SNP be allowed to try and force another one?
Posted from TSR Mobile
I am FOR Scotland's independence.
When (and if) the Scottish people agree they want it themselves too, I say...
GO FOR IT SCOTLAND !!! .
Original post by intelligent con
hope scotland goes independent along with the north and london. We all voted labour NOT TORY
Well Scotland didn't, Labour, Liberal and Conservatives , in coalition can just out vote the pandas in Edinburgh zoo, a spokesman for the panda's said they were now delighted at being the official opposition in Scotland.
English people should mass emigrate to Scotland to stifle the SNP
If there was any proposal for a second referendum any time soon, I'd expect the UK Government not to consent to it. It seems to be oft forgotten that the Scottish Parliament does not have the power to call an independence referendum unilaterally: that was devolved, temporarily with the agreement and on conditions set by the UK Government, and expired at the end of 2014.
The SNP said both a generation and a lifetime. I expect them to be held to that.
Every week they're harping on that the UK Government doing, well, whatever the UK Government happens to be doing that week, will somehow prompt a new referendum. It's not really working, since they're simply being ignored. In the meantime, they should be held up as the desperate grievance-seekers and bad losers that they are. However ultimately the issue is not going to go away until the SNP are voted out of government in the Scottish Parliament, or at least reduced to being a minority administration.
Unfortunately the incompetence, introspection and endless wound-licking of the Labour Party is standing in the way of that. They need to be a credible opposition - soon.
The SNP said both a generation and a lifetime. I expect them to be held to that.
Every week they're harping on that the UK Government doing, well, whatever the UK Government happens to be doing that week, will somehow prompt a new referendum. It's not really working, since they're simply being ignored. In the meantime, they should be held up as the desperate grievance-seekers and bad losers that they are. However ultimately the issue is not going to go away until the SNP are voted out of government in the Scottish Parliament, or at least reduced to being a minority administration.
Unfortunately the incompetence, introspection and endless wound-licking of the Labour Party is standing in the way of that. They need to be a credible opposition - soon.
(edited 8 years ago)
Original post by Quady
Difference being they now have achieved more than 50% of the vote in Scotland, which they haven't done in an election before...
About the same amount of people voted yes in the referendum than voted for the SNP. That should tell you something.
What truly worries me is the amount of support the SNP have maintained after telling so many lies.
Ultimately, a nation with a strong sense of national identity is only going to put up with the current political situation for so long. In the referendum we voted for a system where a party can have 1 MP out of 59, yet that party can govern Scotland. The ever growing sense of injustice at this situation is only going to help support for independence grow.
Add to that the fact that a majority of those aged under 55 voted yes, and independence does look likely in the future.
On the question of whether or not Scotland could survive, I find it quite frankly absurd for anyone to claim that we couldn't. At the moment Westminster set the Scottish budget. At the moment Westminster by-and-large set the tax take. (I know this can be altered by the Scottish, but it doesn't affect the Scottish deficit since the money gained goes straight to the Scottish budget). Therefore, any deficit is the fault of Westminster. That is a plain and simple fact. The UK government operate with a budget deficit at this moment, and in previous years they have operated with a larger deficit than Scotland. Scotland seems to be the only country in the world that couldn't survive with a budget deficit.
If you look at the GERS figures which the Scottish government has historically calculated going back to 1980, then between 1980-2011 the cumulative UK deficit was £968 Billion. During the same period the cumulative Scottish deficit was £49 Billion, or 5.1% of the UK total. What is worth noting is that those figures include a proportional Scottish share of debt interest payments based on population rather than debt created. During this period Scotland was therefore paying around 8.6% of debt interest payments, despite having only created 5.1% of the debt. That isn't even accounting for the fact that the Scottish deficit during this period was partially down to it paying debt interest payments on debt it didn't create.
The Scottish fiscal commission estimated that if Scotland had been independent since the 1980s that right now it would have been between £82 Billion and £116 Billion better off compared right now as part of the UK. The fact is that it is Westminster mismanagement of the Scottish economy that is the reason that Scotland is in the position that it is in today, and our budget deficit is still under their control. That doesn't sound like a ringing endorsement for Westminster rule, far from it. Have we been subsidised? Not at all, it is quite the opposite.
Add to that the fact that a majority of those aged under 55 voted yes, and independence does look likely in the future.
On the question of whether or not Scotland could survive, I find it quite frankly absurd for anyone to claim that we couldn't. At the moment Westminster set the Scottish budget. At the moment Westminster by-and-large set the tax take. (I know this can be altered by the Scottish, but it doesn't affect the Scottish deficit since the money gained goes straight to the Scottish budget). Therefore, any deficit is the fault of Westminster. That is a plain and simple fact. The UK government operate with a budget deficit at this moment, and in previous years they have operated with a larger deficit than Scotland. Scotland seems to be the only country in the world that couldn't survive with a budget deficit.
If you look at the GERS figures which the Scottish government has historically calculated going back to 1980, then between 1980-2011 the cumulative UK deficit was £968 Billion. During the same period the cumulative Scottish deficit was £49 Billion, or 5.1% of the UK total. What is worth noting is that those figures include a proportional Scottish share of debt interest payments based on population rather than debt created. During this period Scotland was therefore paying around 8.6% of debt interest payments, despite having only created 5.1% of the debt. That isn't even accounting for the fact that the Scottish deficit during this period was partially down to it paying debt interest payments on debt it didn't create.
The Scottish fiscal commission estimated that if Scotland had been independent since the 1980s that right now it would have been between £82 Billion and £116 Billion better off compared right now as part of the UK. The fact is that it is Westminster mismanagement of the Scottish economy that is the reason that Scotland is in the position that it is in today, and our budget deficit is still under their control. That doesn't sound like a ringing endorsement for Westminster rule, far from it. Have we been subsidised? Not at all, it is quite the opposite.
(edited 8 years ago)
Sigh. What part of NO do these numpties not get?
Original post by DJKL
It could be that a generation has been reduced in perceived term to match the reduction in attention span of the average UK citizen.
To use another slightly apt political quotation, maybe "The wind of change is blowing through this continent (read country). Whether we like it or not, this growth of national consciousness is a political fact" Of course it it is we will be able to " feel the hand of history upon our shoulder with respect to this".
But of course my real favourite has to when Uncle Jim Sillars was let out for a walkabout and briefly showed the lizards lurking within their SNP suits.
Mr Sillars said:
“The No camp fear-mongering has had an effect on me – instead of retiring on September 19, I am staying in. This referendum is about power, and when we get a Yes majority, we will use that power for a day of reckoning with BP and the banks.
The heads of these companies are rich men, in cahoots with a rich English Tory Prime Minister, to keep Scotland’s poor poorer through lies and distortions. The power they have now to subvert our democracy will come to an end with a Yes.
BP, in an independent Scotland, will need to learn the meaning of nationalisation, in part or in whole, as it has in other countries who have not been as soft as we have forced to be.If it wants into the ‘monster fields’ in the areas west of Shetland, it will have to learn to bend the knee to a greater power – us, the sovereign people of Scotland. We will be the masters of the oil fields, not BP or any other of the majors.If Bob Dudley thinks this is mere rhetoric, just let him wait. It is sovereign power that counts. We will have it, he will not.
As for the bankers. Your casino days, rescued by socialisation of your liabilities while you waltz off with the profits, will be over. You will be split between retail and investment, and if your greed takes the latter down, there will be no rescue.
You believe in the market, in future you will live with its discipline. Fail will mean failure.
As for Standard Life, it will be required by new employment laws to give two years' warning of any redundancies, and reveal to the trade unions its financial reasons for relocation to any country outside of Scotland, and the costs involved.
It has never crossed the minds of our compliant Unionist media, especially the BBC, to ask the chief executive what his costings are on his proposed moves.
As for John Lewis, the question is whether the senior management consulted the ‘partners’ or took instructions from Cameron? Another question our supine BBC did not ask. There is now talk of boycott, and if it happens it will be a management own-goal.
What kind of people do these companies think we are? They will find out."
Jim is now running courses in , How to win friends and influence people", he certainly influenced a fair few employees of the mentioned entities, hardly forgot anyone worth talking about.
To use another slightly apt political quotation, maybe "The wind of change is blowing through this continent (read country). Whether we like it or not, this growth of national consciousness is a political fact" Of course it it is we will be able to " feel the hand of history upon our shoulder with respect to this".
But of course my real favourite has to when Uncle Jim Sillars was let out for a walkabout and briefly showed the lizards lurking within their SNP suits.
Mr Sillars said:
“The No camp fear-mongering has had an effect on me – instead of retiring on September 19, I am staying in. This referendum is about power, and when we get a Yes majority, we will use that power for a day of reckoning with BP and the banks.
The heads of these companies are rich men, in cahoots with a rich English Tory Prime Minister, to keep Scotland’s poor poorer through lies and distortions. The power they have now to subvert our democracy will come to an end with a Yes.
BP, in an independent Scotland, will need to learn the meaning of nationalisation, in part or in whole, as it has in other countries who have not been as soft as we have forced to be.If it wants into the ‘monster fields’ in the areas west of Shetland, it will have to learn to bend the knee to a greater power – us, the sovereign people of Scotland. We will be the masters of the oil fields, not BP or any other of the majors.If Bob Dudley thinks this is mere rhetoric, just let him wait. It is sovereign power that counts. We will have it, he will not.
As for the bankers. Your casino days, rescued by socialisation of your liabilities while you waltz off with the profits, will be over. You will be split between retail and investment, and if your greed takes the latter down, there will be no rescue.
You believe in the market, in future you will live with its discipline. Fail will mean failure.
As for Standard Life, it will be required by new employment laws to give two years' warning of any redundancies, and reveal to the trade unions its financial reasons for relocation to any country outside of Scotland, and the costs involved.
It has never crossed the minds of our compliant Unionist media, especially the BBC, to ask the chief executive what his costings are on his proposed moves.
As for John Lewis, the question is whether the senior management consulted the ‘partners’ or took instructions from Cameron? Another question our supine BBC did not ask. There is now talk of boycott, and if it happens it will be a management own-goal.
What kind of people do these companies think we are? They will find out."
Jim is now running courses in , How to win friends and influence people", he certainly influenced a fair few employees of the mentioned entities, hardly forgot anyone worth talking about.
Some of what Mr Sillars said could have come from a Soviet sympathizer to be honest.
Original post by Stiff Little Fingers
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/SNP/11704739/Scotland-could-go-independent-before-next-election-SNPs-Westminster-leader-suggests.html
Given the recent oil reports, would independence be a viable move, but beyond that given how recently the independence referendum was, should the SNP be allowed to try and force another one?
Posted from TSR Mobile
Given the recent oil reports, would independence be a viable move, but beyond that given how recently the independence referendum was, should the SNP be allowed to try and force another one?
Posted from TSR Mobile
If Scotland insist on reimagining Braveheart, I don't see why we can't just re-invade them.
Original post by roadtripboy
Sigh. What part of NO do these numpties not get?
People shouldn't just give up on their beliefs and aspirations just because they failed, that would be nonsensical. If that had happened, Scotland wouldn't even have a Parliament right now!
Original post by L i b
If there was any proposal for a second referendum any time soon, I'd expect the UK Government not to consent to it. It seems to be oft forgotten that the Scottish Parliament does not have the power to call an independence referendum unilaterally: that was devolved, temporarily with the agreement and on conditions set by the UK Government, and expired at the end of 2014.
The SNP said both a generation and a lifetime. I expect them to be held to that.
Every week they're harping on that the UK Government doing, well, whatever the UK Government happens to be doing that week, will somehow prompt a new referendum. It's not really working, since they're simply being ignored. In the meantime, they should be held up as the desperate grievance-seekers and bad losers that they are. However ultimately the issue is not going to go away until the SNP are voted out of government in the Scottish Parliament, or at least reduced to being a minority administration.
Unfortunately the incompetence, introspection and endless wound-licking of the Labour Party is standing in the way of that. They need to be a credible opposition - soon.
The SNP said both a generation and a lifetime. I expect them to be held to that.
Every week they're harping on that the UK Government doing, well, whatever the UK Government happens to be doing that week, will somehow prompt a new referendum. It's not really working, since they're simply being ignored. In the meantime, they should be held up as the desperate grievance-seekers and bad losers that they are. However ultimately the issue is not going to go away until the SNP are voted out of government in the Scottish Parliament, or at least reduced to being a minority administration.
Unfortunately the incompetence, introspection and endless wound-licking of the Labour Party is standing in the way of that. They need to be a credible opposition - soon.
Do not disagree but don't hold your breath re Labour and expect pretty significant (probably majority) SNP result next year.
Labour are between a rock and a hard place, the trust (complacency of the Scottish electorate) is broken.
They may need to split from Labour UK as a distinct party to pursue a more radical platform than might appeal to the whole UK, well England, really. We basically up here like our fish and chips as haddock but in England they like Cod, different taste buds.
There have been a few heads above the parapet re this line, but I think they are really still trying to get the pulse of what they want to do. Shellshocked is an understatement.
I find myself in a difficult position here, I have hated Labour's Scottish mafia most of my life, the buggins turn approach, but the current position is a tad undemocratic. At least with our wonderful Scottish voting system (designed so nobody can get a majority- we want our money back on that one) there will next year be representation from the other parties up the road, however whether anyone really listens to them is another matter.
The SNP are in no way bullrtproof but right now it is like watching The Matrix, they swerve the bullets with ease possibly because the other parties up here cannot aim.
Labour really need to find Neo.
(edited 8 years ago)
Original post by DJKL
Do not disagree but don't hold your breath re Labour and expect pretty significant (probably majority) SNP result next year.
Labour are between a rock and a hard place, the trust (complacency of the Scottish electorate) is broken.
They may need to split from Labour UK as a distinct party to pursue a more radical platform than might appeal to the whole UK, well England, really, we are basically up here like our fish and chips, we like haddock but in England Cod, different taste buds.
There have been a few heads above the parapet re this line, but I think they are really still trying to get the pulse of what they want to do. Shellshocked is an understatement.
I find myself in a difficult position here, I have hated Labour's Scottish mafia most of my life, the buggins turn approach, but the current position is a tad undemocratic. At least with our wonderful Scottish voting system (designed so nobody can get a majority- we want our money back on that one) there will next year be representation from the other parties up the road, however whether anyone really listens to them is another matter.
The SNP are in no way bullrtproof but right now it is like watching The Matrix, they swerve the bullets with ease possibly because the other parties up here cannot aim.
Labour really need to find Neo.
Labour are between a rock and a hard place, the trust (complacency of the Scottish electorate) is broken.
They may need to split from Labour UK as a distinct party to pursue a more radical platform than might appeal to the whole UK, well England, really, we are basically up here like our fish and chips, we like haddock but in England Cod, different taste buds.
There have been a few heads above the parapet re this line, but I think they are really still trying to get the pulse of what they want to do. Shellshocked is an understatement.
I find myself in a difficult position here, I have hated Labour's Scottish mafia most of my life, the buggins turn approach, but the current position is a tad undemocratic. At least with our wonderful Scottish voting system (designed so nobody can get a majority- we want our money back on that one) there will next year be representation from the other parties up the road, however whether anyone really listens to them is another matter.
The SNP are in no way bullrtproof but right now it is like watching The Matrix, they swerve the bullets with ease possibly because the other parties up here cannot aim.
Labour really need to find Neo.
Worth a read
http://www.cityam.com/215414/general-election-2015-results-heres-who-came-second-every-seat-including-120-silver-medals
Original post by flibber
Some of what Mr Sillars said could have come from a Soviet sympathizer to be honest.
I know, it was wonderful, wonder what percentage of the vote he swung to NO?
If they do it again he will be kept in a basement with gaffer tape over his mouth until after the vote. He really reminded me of the awkward relative, every family has one, and when devising the wedding seating plan you just have to be really sure to keep him away from the new in-laws, at least until they have said I do,
Original post by david9640
People shouldn't just give up on their beliefs and aspirations just because they failed, that would be nonsensical. If that had happened, Scotland wouldn't even have a Parliament right now!
Just keep watching the spider
Original post by L i b
If there was any proposal for a second referendum any time soon, I'd expect the UK Government not to consent to it. It seems to be oft forgotten that the Scottish Parliament does not have the power to call an independence referendum unilaterally: that was devolved, temporarily with the agreement and on conditions set by the UK Government, and expired at the end of 2014.
The SNP said both a generation and a lifetime. I expect them to be held to that.
The SNP said both a generation and a lifetime. I expect them to be held to that.
While I (what will come as quite as a surprise in the context of my previous posts) don't support another referendum within the next 5 years at least, and would actively vote no as a point of principle, I don't think refusing another referendum would be at all tenable.
If the SNP stood on a manifesto pledge that they would hold another referendum, and got a majority, then there would be a crazy sense of injustice and anger in Scotland, even more so than during the poll tax years. Westminster would be seen to be denying the Scots a right to self determination and by denying a referendum itself would almost certainly make independence inevitable.
Original post by david9640
While I (what will come as quite as a surprise in the context of my previous posts) don't support another referendum within the next 5 years at least, and would actively vote no as a point of principle, I don't think refusing another referendum would be at all tenable.
If the SNP stood on a manifesto pledge that they would hold another referendum, and got a majority, then there would be a crazy sense of injustice and anger in Scotland, even more so than during the poll tax years. Westminster would be seen to be denying the Scots a right to self determination and by denying a referendum itself would almost certainly make independence inevitable.
If the SNP stood on a manifesto pledge that they would hold another referendum, and got a majority, then there would be a crazy sense of injustice and anger in Scotland, even more so than during the poll tax years. Westminster would be seen to be denying the Scots a right to self determination and by denying a referendum itself would almost certainly make independence inevitable.
If they decide to do it that is exactly how they will play it.
And sending the "troops" down to Westminster is straight from Braveheart,
Hamish:
Where are you going?
William Wallace:
I'm going to pick a fight.
Hamish:
Well, we didn't get dressed up for nothing.
Would be interesting if the UK government called their bluff on this.
Announced there was going to be another Scottish referendum (paid for out of the subsidies going to Scotland) in 2016 and another one in 2017.
My guess is you would see similar results, narrow wins for the No campaign.
The SNP would keep campaigning so announce another one in 2019.
By this point the Scottish people will start going oh FFS and the majority for No will get bigger.
Then we could call another one for 2021 as a "just to make sure" and you would start seeing apathy.
Then it would be hard for the SNP to keep on calling for more and more referenda.
Of course they could win a referendum for the Yes campaign, but I don't think so, not so soon after last year. It's one thing voting SNP when independence isn't at stake, as a rejection of the Labour party, it's another voting for independence.
Announced there was going to be another Scottish referendum (paid for out of the subsidies going to Scotland) in 2016 and another one in 2017.
My guess is you would see similar results, narrow wins for the No campaign.
The SNP would keep campaigning so announce another one in 2019.
By this point the Scottish people will start going oh FFS and the majority for No will get bigger.
Then we could call another one for 2021 as a "just to make sure" and you would start seeing apathy.
Then it would be hard for the SNP to keep on calling for more and more referenda.
Of course they could win a referendum for the Yes campaign, but I don't think so, not so soon after last year. It's one thing voting SNP when independence isn't at stake, as a rejection of the Labour party, it's another voting for independence.
Thanks, it does indicate re the Scottish elections we will have some others from the list in the "wee house" but if the SNP holds, and no sign of breaking, they will likely get another overall majority. I doubt we will see another referendum in their manifesto for 2015 as things stand, but it is possible, they will keep watching the political landscape and if other events strengthen their hand they could; I suspect the Yes vote would be up for it and certainly the No vote are fed up with it, so possible.
Original post by DJKL
If they decide to do it that is exactly how they will play it.
And sending the "troops" down to Westminster is straight from Braveheart,
Hamish:
Where are you going?
William Wallace:
I'm going to pick a fight.
Hamish:
Well, we didn't get dressed up for nothing.
And sending the "troops" down to Westminster is straight from Braveheart,
Hamish:
Where are you going?
William Wallace:
I'm going to pick a fight.
Hamish:
Well, we didn't get dressed up for nothing.
That doesn't really challenge the point, eventually under that scenario there would have to be a referendum. Civil disobedience would become quite a serious issue I would imagine. The UK isn't an empire any more, and it would be difficult for the UK to lecture Argentina on the Falklands, China on Hong Kong, Spain on Gibraltar, or indeed criticize other countries who aren't exactly democratic or who may be holding on to annexed land (Russia), with any integrity.
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