Egyptian Historian: Gaza is our enemy, not Israel

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Tbh I would attack if someone just took over half of my country, imagine Russia just took over everywhere from california to wyoming. A lot of people would be pissed off I think

If instead of Russia, imagine a native American tribe who had been living in Europe as a diaspora came back to America, and set up a small state on land that made up around 1% of the United States in total.

That doesn't seem particularly unfair, does it?

Reply 41

username2053059

Original post by ExcitedPup

Yeah? Look at the map of Israel and palestine today hardly 1%

Reply 42

ExcitedPup

Original post by cbreef

Yeah? Look at the map of Israel and palestine today hardly 1%

Israel is about 1% of the middle east (and also only 16% of the original Palestine mandate, which included modern-day Jordan, why doesn't your map include that?)

1% doesn't seem overly unfair, that the ethnic/religious group who really are the indigenous inhabitants should be allowed to have a very small sliver of land (in some places Israel is only 15 kilometers wide), and all of the rest of the Middle East is for Arabs and Persians

Reply 43

username2053059

Original post by ExcitedPup

I think we can all agree religion can be a bitch sometimes

Reply 44

ExcitedPup

Original post by cbreef

I think we can all agree religion can be a bitch sometimes

Religion is far bitchier if you are, say, a gay guy living in the Palestinian territories. Or a Christian or a Ba'hai.

Israel is not just the homeland of the Jews, it is a safe haven for many minorities of the Middle East including LGBT, Christians, Druze, Ba'hai, Kurds and now Yezidi refugees too.

If Israel were to be conquered by the Arabs, you would not just see a massive bloodbath and ethnic cleansing, you would see the ethnic and religious diversity of the Middle East plummet, and it would become the sea of Arab Muslim ethnic/religious homogeneity that many extremists dearly want.

How would that be a good outcome? It's not.

I don't support everything Israel does, I find settlement building deeply obnoxious. But equally, I think that Israel exists and it's not going away. On that basis, a two-state solution is the best way to move the issue forward and find an end to the conflict.

Reply 45

username2053059

Original post by ExcitedPup

I'm not saying Israel shouldn't exist by any means. I just wish they'd stop fighting

Reply 46

ExcitedPup

Original post by cbreef

I'm not saying Israel shouldn't exist by any means. I just wish they'd stop fighting

Me too. I really would like them to sort out the issues, but it's not all one side

In 2005, Israel pulled completely out of Gaza; they pulled the army out, the Israeli government also forcibly evicted 10,000 Israeli settlers and said, "You cannot live in Gaza anymore, you have to find somewhere else to live". They did that at great political cost.

The idea was that pulling out of Gaza would show the Israeli people that pulling out could be done, and they would then go on to pull out of West Bank. Unfortunately, shortly after Israel pulled out, Hamas took over the Gaza Strip, and in the following nine years have provoked three all-out wars with Israel by firing thousands of rockets at them.

Before Israel pulled out of Gaza they never had this rocket problem. They did the right thing by pulling out, and they were repaid with violence. That is so unfortunate because many Israelis concluded that the Palestinians are not willing to make a deal.

But in any case in 2008 Israel PM Olmert made a peace offer to the Palestinians. They would have all of Gaza, plus 96% of the West Bank. As compensation for the remaining 4%, they would have an equivalent amount of land from Israel transferred to them. They would be given $14 billion in development moneys, and a tunnel would be built connecting Gaza and West Bank so they didn't have to get Israeli permission to travel.

They would also have full sovereignty over the East Jerusalem holy sites. The Palestinians didn't even respond. If Olmert had been able to go to the Israel 2009 election saying "We have a peace deal in hand, an end to the conflict. Vote for me and we will finish this conflict". Unfortunately the Palestinians didn't respond and Netanyahu, who is much more right-wing, was elected instead.

That 2008 offer was the best offer the Palestinians had got for 40 years. It was insane not to at least come back with a counter-offer. Keep in mind, after the 1967 war in which Israel completely kicked the Arab armies butts, the Israelis in 1968 said they would give back all the land they had taken in exchange for recognition and peace. The Palestinians refused as they said they would never recognise Israel's right to exist.

Fast forward 30 years and now the PLO (but not Hamas) does accept Israel's right to exist. Think of all that wasted time, wasted opportunity. In fact, if they had accepted in 1948 Palestine would have a much larger state than Gaza and West Bank, as the original partition was much more favourable than what they might get now.

Israel will not be defeated militarily, the longer the Palestinians hold off making a deal the more they lose