"Meninists"...
Why do males on TSR complain so bitterly about feminism and gender quotas?
As I male myself, I wouldn't have a problem with equally qualified men being slightly - even moderately - discriminated against by employers, who need to fulfill quotas. I am perhaps arrogant enough to believe I am capable of getting a good job quite easily, even with this additional hurdle, and I think a balanced gender ratio would be a more pleasant environment to work in.
Discuss.
As I male myself, I wouldn't have a problem with equally qualified men being slightly - even moderately - discriminated against by employers, who need to fulfill quotas. I am perhaps arrogant enough to believe I am capable of getting a good job quite easily, even with this additional hurdle, and I think a balanced gender ratio would be a more pleasant environment to work in.
Discuss.
Scroll to see replies
Because it's bullsh*t.
Why have quotas? What does that really fulfil? Listening to some of the garbage out there you'd think it was because men are favoured in certain areas of employment. However...
Fundamentally wrong assumption made by these people: Given everything about the social standing and opportunities of the sexes is equal, job roles will have a roughly 50:50 proportion of men and women.
But it's not true. Quotas enforcing these incorrect ideas are, in my opinion, damaging. It can make opportunities for the right people more difficult for a stupid reason.
Why have quotas? What does that really fulfil? Listening to some of the garbage out there you'd think it was because men are favoured in certain areas of employment. However...
Fundamentally wrong assumption made by these people: Given everything about the social standing and opportunities of the sexes is equal, job roles will have a roughly 50:50 proportion of men and women.
But it's not true. Quotas enforcing these incorrect ideas are, in my opinion, damaging. It can make opportunities for the right people more difficult for a stupid reason.
Because quotas mean women are employed purely for the reason they have a vagina.
If I was a woman and I was employed for this reason, I would be half pissed that I was treated like **** and half happy that I got a job advantage. If I was a male I would be full pissed and never vote that **** party in again and would participate in a coup if I knew a date.
If I was a woman and I was employed for this reason, I would be half pissed that I was treated like **** and half happy that I got a job advantage. If I was a male I would be full pissed and never vote that **** party in again and would participate in a coup if I knew a date.
Original post by FireGarden
Because it's bullsh*t.
Why have quotas? What does that really fulfil? Listening to some of the garbage out there you'd think it was because men are favoured in certain areas of employment. However...
Fundamentally wrong assumption made by these people: Given everything about the social standing and opportunities of the sexes is equal, job roles will have a roughly 50:50 proportion of men and women.
But it's not true. Quotas enforcing these incorrect ideas are, in my opinion, damaging. It can make opportunities for the right people more difficult for a stupid reason.
Why have quotas? What does that really fulfil? Listening to some of the garbage out there you'd think it was because men are favoured in certain areas of employment. However...
Fundamentally wrong assumption made by these people: Given everything about the social standing and opportunities of the sexes is equal, job roles will have a roughly 50:50 proportion of men and women.
But it's not true. Quotas enforcing these incorrect ideas are, in my opinion, damaging. It can make opportunities for the right people more difficult for a stupid reason.
Quotas will hurt in the short term, yes, but will even out in the long term. To be honest, there aren't many famous female mathematicians and scientists, but hopefully that will change soon, and more girls will be encouraged to go into proper professions...
Do you think many men would want to do computer science if it was seen as a very feminine profession? Probably not.
Original post by Nortus
Because quotas mean women are employed purely for the reason they have a vagina.If I was a woman and I was employed for this reason, I would be half pissed that I was treated like **** and half happy that I got a job advantage. If I was a male I would be full pissed and never vote that **** party in again and would participate in a coup if I knew a date.
I'm not denying its unfair on a lot of men, but we have to think beyond 'fairness'... we need more female scientists, and this is surely the easiest way to do so...
(edited 8 years ago)
Original post by Johann von Gauss
Quotas will hurt in the short term, yes, but will even out in the long term....
Opposite. It will fall victim to the same backlash that affirmative action suffers from.
Quotas only cause resentment and doubt in the people that feel they got to their position without any help. From a business perspective, that can ruin group dynamics for a bunch of higher-ups that are only worried about watching their bottom line and having the best talent to do it, which is really what's important
@The Assassin
(edited 8 years ago)
Original post by Johann von Gauss
Quotas will hurt in the short term, yes, but will even out in the long term. To be honest, there aren't many famous female mathematicians and scientists, but hopefully that will change soon, and more girls will be encouraged to go into proper professions...
Do you think many men would want to do computer science if it was seen as a very feminine profession? Probably not.
I'm not denying its unfair on a lot of men, but we have to think beyond 'fairness'... we need more female scientists, and this is surely the easiest way to do so...
Do you think many men would want to do computer science if it was seen as a very feminine profession? Probably not.
I'm not denying its unfair on a lot of men, but we have to think beyond 'fairness'... we need more female scientists, and this is surely the easiest way to do so...
Why do we need more women in science? Aesthetics? It's a free choice. As long as women aren't behind prevented from going there through legislation, I don't really care.
Feminism, or the correct medical term ‘Feminazitremens’, is a horrible debilitating disease of the mind that is characterised by making generalisations, false accusations and a tendency to look for any excuse to be offended. Symptoms include chronic nagging and the habit of kicking up a fuss about relatively small things in Western countries when compared to the real gender divisions in third world countries.
Those who suffer from feminism tend to ignore the blatant injustices that affect the male sex, including longer prison sentences, less chance of winning custody battles, a far higher chance of violent assault and a higher mortality rate. These are casually waved off as being a product of male power and thus men are to blame for everything wrong with the world. Feminism is often spread via the mouth, with the very young being most vulnerable. FCKH8 have even capitalised upon this by using 4 year olds to shout swear words in the name of feminism in their adverts.
Feminists often suffer from hallucinations about a mythical entity known as ‘the patriarchy’, which may be understood to mean a small upper-class echelon of rich white males who pull the strings at the top; unfortunately, feminists can’t seem to understand that not every man in the world is in the position to go to Oxbridge and straight into a job that pays £100K a year, thus feminists identify all men as being a problem.
Despite shouting ‘privilege’ at every opportunity, sufferers of feminism tend to come from a privileged background of their own and will barely take into account their own privileges. Notable examples include privately educated Jessica Valenti and Laurie Penny, whose hardships at private school seemed to have made life so difficult for them that they decided to write for the Guardian and other champagne socialist outlets.
Feminism is most commonly found in bourgeoisie women who are primarily interested in protecting their own class privilege. This is why they prefer to focus on 'sexism' in the likes of video games, television and movies than on the fact that millions of families don't have enough food because of the likes of Esther McVey and Theresa May. Unless you 100% agree with a feminist then you automatically hate woman and don’t believe in equality.
Many studies have gone into the causes of feminism, with the most conclusive evidence suggesting that jealously between females and poor socialisation skills are the main source. In the rare instance that a man is infected he may have succumbed to the deadly ‘White Knight Syndrome’. There is, as of yet, no known cure to feminism, but trials with the recently developed Humanism vaccine have proven successful in several studies. If you think you may have feminism then please get yourself tested!
Those who suffer from feminism tend to ignore the blatant injustices that affect the male sex, including longer prison sentences, less chance of winning custody battles, a far higher chance of violent assault and a higher mortality rate. These are casually waved off as being a product of male power and thus men are to blame for everything wrong with the world. Feminism is often spread via the mouth, with the very young being most vulnerable. FCKH8 have even capitalised upon this by using 4 year olds to shout swear words in the name of feminism in their adverts.
Feminists often suffer from hallucinations about a mythical entity known as ‘the patriarchy’, which may be understood to mean a small upper-class echelon of rich white males who pull the strings at the top; unfortunately, feminists can’t seem to understand that not every man in the world is in the position to go to Oxbridge and straight into a job that pays £100K a year, thus feminists identify all men as being a problem.
Despite shouting ‘privilege’ at every opportunity, sufferers of feminism tend to come from a privileged background of their own and will barely take into account their own privileges. Notable examples include privately educated Jessica Valenti and Laurie Penny, whose hardships at private school seemed to have made life so difficult for them that they decided to write for the Guardian and other champagne socialist outlets.
Feminism is most commonly found in bourgeoisie women who are primarily interested in protecting their own class privilege. This is why they prefer to focus on 'sexism' in the likes of video games, television and movies than on the fact that millions of families don't have enough food because of the likes of Esther McVey and Theresa May. Unless you 100% agree with a feminist then you automatically hate woman and don’t believe in equality.
Many studies have gone into the causes of feminism, with the most conclusive evidence suggesting that jealously between females and poor socialisation skills are the main source. In the rare instance that a man is infected he may have succumbed to the deadly ‘White Knight Syndrome’. There is, as of yet, no known cure to feminism, but trials with the recently developed Humanism vaccine have proven successful in several studies. If you think you may have feminism then please get yourself tested!
The UK doesn't have quotas, it has targets.
What anti-feminist men don't understand is that feminism is fighting for men too.
What anti-feminist men don't understand is that feminism is fighting for men too.
Original post by YesAllMen
Opposite. It will fall victim to the same backlash that affirmative action suffers from.
Quotas only cause resentment and doubt in the people that feel they got to their position without any help. From a business perspective, that can ruin group dynamics for a bunch of higher-ups that are only worried about watching their bottom line and having the best talent to do it, which is really what's important
Quotas only cause resentment and doubt in the people that feel they got to their position without any help. From a business perspective, that can ruin group dynamics for a bunch of higher-ups that are only worried about watching their bottom line and having the best talent to do it, which is really what's important
Yes, 'group dynamics' will suffer, but there will be more female role models to choose from, especially in the sciences, who will encourage girls to get into science more. And gradually they will do so.
I'm also all for pushing quotas on female dominated careers for more men, but they are less important...
Original post by Nortus
Why do we need more women in science? Aesthetics? It's a free choice. As long as women aren't behind prevented from going there through legislation, I don't really care.
More efficient use of talent in the long term...
Original post by Evening
RANT
TL;DR = ?
Original post by Johann von Gauss
Yes, 'group dynamics' will suffer, but there will be more female role models to choose from, especially in the sciences, who will encourage girls to get into science more. And gradually they will do so.
Why would that be the case -- and why do you value the necessity of more women being in a type of work you're thinking over a properly functioning business?
I'm also all for pushing quotas on female dominated careers for more men, but they are less important...
Why?
Original post by Johann von Gauss
Quotas will hurt in the short term, yes, but will even out in the long term. To be honest, there aren't many famous female mathematicians and scientists, but hopefully that will change soon, and more girls will be encouraged to go into proper professions...
Do you think many men would want to do computer science if it was seen as a very feminine profession? Probably not.
Do you think many men would want to do computer science if it was seen as a very feminine profession? Probably not.
Which way round is it: Is computer science seen as masculine because mostly men do it, or is computer science dominated by men because it's seen as a masculine thing?
I strongly believe it's the first case.
Ironically mathematics (I happen to be a masters student of maths) is one field which has actively encouraged female mathematicians. Sophie Germain and Emmy Noether are obvious examples of very successful women in mathematics. Indeed, Germain had a fair amount of correspondence with Gauss (often held to be the greatest mathematician to date), who was quite a disagreeable person - he wasn't too fond of the achievements of others, often calling them trivial or informing them he had done it before. Germain on the other hand, at first corresponded with a pseudonym - in the early 1800's, women were obviously not taken seriously academically. She revealed to Gauss her true identity, to which he replied:
"How can I describe my astonishment and admiration on seeing my esteemed correspondent M leBlanc metamorphosed into this celebrated person. . . when a woman, because of her sex, our customs and prejudices, encounters infinitely more obstacles than men in familiarising herself with [number theory's] knotty problems, yet overcomes these fetters and penetrates that which is most hidden, she doubtless has the most noble courage, extraordinary talent, and superior genius"
Mathematics is a field where the community cares about results, and not about the trivial differences in who might have found them. There are many women in mathematics, but not as many as men. I firmly hold the opinion that mathematics as a pursuit that appeals to men moreso than women. I don't think society has any factor in it - men and women of the general public feel no shame in publicly admitting mathematical incompetency, or a dislike for the subject. I don't see how society can possibly be giving the message that maths is a "man" subject when it's mostly the message that everyone dislikes it and thinks it's hard.
I can't emphasis enough how much I believe there is a natural difference between the sexes, and we should not be trying to force proportions which aren't what would happen in a perfect world. If only one woman wants to work in mathematics for every 4 men, then a 20:80 split is what the mathematical community should have.
Original post by Johann von Gauss
Why do males on TSR complain so bitterly about feminism and gender quotas?
As I male myself, I wouldn't have a problem with equally qualified men being slightly - even moderately - discriminated against by employers, who need to fulfill quotas. I am perhaps arrogant enough to believe I am capable of getting a good job quite easily, even with this additional hurdle, and I think a balanced gender ratio would be a more pleasant environment to work in.
Discuss.
As I male myself, I wouldn't have a problem with equally qualified men being slightly - even moderately - discriminated against by employers, who need to fulfill quotas. I am perhaps arrogant enough to believe I am capable of getting a good job quite easily, even with this additional hurdle, and I think a balanced gender ratio would be a more pleasant environment to work in.
Discuss.
Because it's open discrimination. You don't give someone a job just because he or she is [insert minority group here]. That is a sure fire way to screw the country over.
Original post by applicationa
The UK doesn't have quotas, it has targets.
What anti-feminist men don't understand is that feminism is fighting for men too.
What anti-feminist men don't understand is that feminism is fighting for men too.
How does it help men?
Original post by FireGarden
I firmly hold the opinion that mathematics as a pursuit that appeals to men moreso than women. I don't think society has any factor in it - men and women of the general public feel no shame in publicly admitting mathematical incompetency, or a dislike for the subject. I don't see how society can possibly be giving the message that maths is a "man" subject when it's mostly the message that everyone dislikes it and thinks it's hard.
I can't emphasis enough how much I believe there is a natural difference between the sexes, and we should not be trying to force proportions which aren't what would happen in a perfect world. If only one woman wants to work in mathematics for every 4 men, then a 20:80 split is what the mathematical community should have.
I can't emphasis enough how much I believe there is a natural difference between the sexes, and we should not be trying to force proportions which aren't what would happen in a perfect world. If only one woman wants to work in mathematics for every 4 men, then a 20:80 split is what the mathematical community should have.
Thank you for your reply. You make very good points here, perhaps I should do the same.
Yes, there are natural differences between men and women. Men seem to compose the majority of wunderkinds and morons, which obviously means more will go into maths. (Interestingly, a much higher proportion of males make their STEP offers than females). But, is it in the country's best (long-term) interests to have a perfect meritocracy? A lot of clever females slip through the net, and don't become scientists and mathematicians, and over-representing the achievements of women in this field will probably attract more women to the field, and not deter men.
Another important issue is that many women put off having a family because it will hurt their careers. By placing a lot of women a bit higher than they are perhaps comfortable with, this obstacle will be removed, and having a family will not sacrifice their careers.
Out of curiosity, are you planning on going into research?
Original post by Rakas21
How does it help men?
Because feminism is about breaking down gender roles. The female gender role works against women, and sometimes the male gender role works against men.
Original post by Johann von Gauss
Yes, there are natural differences between men and women. Men seem to compose the majority of wunderkinds and morons, which obviously means more will go into maths.
This has more to do with differences in socialisation than differences in biology.
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