Thoughts on Cambridge Maths Offer Situation?

Original post by Dalek1099

This is rubbish it is well known that the most competitive courses at Cambridge are Medicine and Mathematics, these are the only two courses for which you don't get auto pooled if you get great UMS.Medicine is extremely competitive as it is the most competitive course in the country and it is at Cambridge.Mathematics is really competitive due to how strong the course is at Cambridge and the rigorous exam STEP is needed to get the best students, I have read articles saying that Cambridge Maths is the most toughest to get into course in the UK.

It probably goes something like this:
1/2 Medicine/Mathematics
3/4 Natural Science/Engineering

The competitive nature of Natural Science means that I won't have that good chance of getting this alternative course, unless I do really well in my A Levels and are thus desperate to have me.

Reply 42

Original post by DJMayes

It is important to note the distinction between the difficulty of getting an offer, and the difficulty of getting in. When most people talk about competitiveness this often means the former. In which case Maths is not the most competitive course at Cambridge; indeed it is not even the most competitive Maths course in the UK; Oxford is harder to get an offer for, for example.

The reason is STEP. Cambridge give out twice as many offers as they have places because so many people miss their STEP offers. As such Maths is one of the easier courses to get an offer for statistically, and is in that sense less competitive. Certainly it is significantly harder to get an offer for Architecture, Natural Sciences and Engineering.

Of course, Maths is much harder to meet the offer for but this is an aspect often touched upon less by statistics which are more interested in "X applicants:Y offers" type information.

True but that is because that is not the case for maths courses at other unis. E.g. oxford maths is harder to get an offer from, but when we get to the end-stage (which is what is important) it is harder to get into maths at cambridge than oxford

For cambridge, you have to consider the competitiveness of actually getting in for maths, when comparing the competitiveness of getting an offer for other subjects (because realistically this is the same thing for any subject that isn't maths).

Reply 43

Colmans

11

Original post by Dalek1099

This is rubbish it is well known that the most competitive courses at Cambridge are Medicine and Mathematics, these are the only two courses for which you don't get auto pooled if you get great UMS.Medicine is extremely competitive as it is the most competitive course in the country and it is at Cambridge.Mathematics is really competitive due to how strong the course is at Cambridge and the rigorous exam STEP is needed to get the best students, I have read articles saying that Cambridge Maths is the most toughest to get into course in the UK.

It probably goes something like this:
1/2 Medicine/Mathematics
3/4 Natural Science/Engineering

The competitive nature of Natural Science means that I won't have that good chance of getting this alternative course, unless I do really well in my A Levels and are thus desperate to have me.

Rubbish is too strong a statement!

Auto-pooling by UMS does not happen for Medicine and Maths but neither are UMS considered the most reliable indicator of success for these two degrees.

It is true that Medicine throughout the UK attracts high calibre candidates although the offer at other unis is often only AAA-A*AA. Maths is reckoned to be one of the hardest maths course in the country but this is not the same as saying it is the most competitive as compared with other subjects.

We cannot know what level of self-selection goes on so that even application statistics don't tell you how the calibre of candidates who get in for one course compares with another subject.

Average UMS for entrants is as high in Economics as it is for Medicine. It is not unknown for people who have applied to Cambridge for Economics to not get an offer at UCL or LSE whereas most of those who don't get a Maths offer, let alone who get one but fail their Step offer, will have got Imperial/UCL/Warwick and so on.
If you watched the pool in previous years as I did it was pretty obvious that most Economics poolees did not get an offer so auto-pooling does not mean a course is less competitive if the standard offer is normally going to those with average UMS well above the 93% level.

Arguably Architecture is the hardest course by application success as rates have fallen below 10% ij many years.

Reply 44

Original post by Colmans

Rubbish is too strong a statement!
...
Arguably Architecture is the hardest course by application success as rates have fallen below 10% ij many years.

Indeed
...
as per my table above.

Reply 45

username937760

16

Original post by newblood

True but that is because that is not the case for maths courses at other unis. E.g. oxford maths is harder to get an offer from, but when we get to the end-stage (which is what is important) it is harder to get into maths at cambridge than oxford

For cambridge, you have to consider the competitiveness of actually getting in for maths, when comparing the competitiveness of getting an offer for other subjects (because realistically this is the same thing for any subject that isn't maths).

I feel like you've largely repeated what I said in different words.

Reply 46

Original post by DJMayes

I feel like you've largely repeated what I said in different words.

Fair enough :smile:

Reply 47

@Colmans @Dalek1099

New improved chart...

Cambridge courses ranked by Acceptance Success Rate%
Applications, Offers and Acceptances - 2014 data

Cambridge courses - chart success rate.jpg

Cambridge courses - chart success rate.jpg

To Dalek, good luck on the 13th. And I do mean that.

Reply 48

username1162972

18

Original post by jneill

@Colmans @Dalek1099

New improved chart...

Cambridge courses ranked by Acceptance Success Rate%
Applications, Offers and Acceptances - 2014 data

Cambridge courses - chart success rate.jpg

To Dalek, good luck on the 13th. And I do mean that.

Apparently. Everyone at Cambridge thinks Maths is the hardest course. Probably cause the intake are of such high quality.

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Reply 49

Dalek1099

OP

Original post by DJMayes

It is important to note the distinction between the difficulty of getting an offer, and the difficulty of getting in. When most people talk about competitiveness this often means the former. In which case Maths is not the most competitive course at Cambridge; indeed it is not even the most competitive Maths course in the UK; Oxford is harder to get an offer for, for example.

The reason is STEP. Cambridge give out twice as many offers as they have places because so many people miss their STEP offers. As such Maths is one of the easier courses to get an offer for statistically, and is in that sense less competitive. Certainly it is significantly harder to get an offer for Architecture, Natural Sciences and Engineering.

Of course, Maths is much harder to meet the offer for but this is an aspect often touched upon less by statistics which are more interested in "X applicants:Y offers" type information.

The ratio of applicants to offers isn't really a good way to work out the competitiveness I would argue that Cambridge Maths is still very hard to get an offer(to prove this I have seen people who have later gotten great STEP grades, who did not get an offer so its not easy and they have wondered how they didn't get an interview), this is because usually only really good applicants apply because they know they will have to sit STEP.Where as other subjects may have a low ratio of getting an offer but the candidates may be of a much lower standard for their subject, than the strong applications Cambridge gets for Maths.

You have got to remember that the number of applicants is controlled by the general offer conditions/interview process for the most competitive of courses they have to put huge barriers in place so that they have enough time to do all the interviews.Did these subjects have the equivalent of STEP,BMAT?-highly recognised rigorous tests for Maths and Medicine or were they much easier tests like MAT/no extra tests?I think the difficulty of the offer and the process of getting in is probably the truest reflection of the competitive nature of a course.

(edited 8 years ago)

Reply 50

Dalek1099

OP

Original post by physicsmaths

Apparently. Everyone at Cambridge thinks Maths is the hardest course. Probably cause the intake are of such high quality.

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Yes Mathematics is the hardest course at Cambridge, thats why lots of people can transfer out of it but not many can transfer into it and thats why they offer alternative courses to people who fail STEP because they know how clever these students are and that they really want them at the University.Cambridge Maths is arguably the hardest degree course in the world and it looks like it would have been too hard for me.

Reply 51

Dalek, not everyone wants to do a Maths degree. Please stop.

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Reply 52

Original post by jneill

Dalek, not everyone wants to do a Maths degree. Please stop.

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Why? He's not said anything wrong. Regardless of whether you want to do maths or not, when it comes to cambridge it is quite clear from drop outs and transfer rates that it is their hardest course, and has been said time and time again: the hardest undergraduate degree available in the world.

Competitiveness is innate in the quality of applicants, you can not tell this simply by looking at the numbers. There is a lot of self selection when it comes to applying to oxbridge, and a far greater deal when it comes to cambridge maths - the weaker brethren tend to apply to Oxford to avoid the hurdle that is STEP

Reply 53

Original post by newblood

Why? He's not said anything wrong. Regardless of whether you want to do maths or not, when it comes to cambridge it is quite clear from drop outs and transfer rates that it is their hardest course, and has been said time and time again: the hardest undergraduate degree available in the world.

Competitiveness is innate in the quality of applicants, you can not tell this simply by looking at the numbers. There is a lot of self selection when it comes to applying to oxbridge, and a far greater deal when it comes to cambridge maths - the weaker brethren tend to apply to Oxford to avoid the hurdle that is STEP

And you don't think many engineers self-select to go to Imperial as a first choice?

Or economists to LSE. Or whatever.

Yes Maths at Cambridge is hard. But stop implying other courses are not up to its standards and are falling over themselves to take Maths applicants who miss their offers.

Anyway, as I said - I wish him luck on the 13th.

Reply 54