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I registered as an "supporter" for Labour while being member of another party

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Original post by SignFromDog
Of course; Seumas Milne and Owen Jones are two the most prominent. I think like the left itself, the Guardian encompasses many different strands and tendencies. On some issues (relating to Islamism) they actually tend to the far left view


I don't understand the left. They claim to support LGBT rights yet allow Islamic views which highly condemn such rights to flourish. They also claim they support animal rights yet fully endorse everyone eating halal meat which has barbaric slaughter methods. They claim to support the environment yet want to import 10s of millions of people here and cover all the green landscape in housing, schools, hospitals, prisons, public infrastructure and so on. They claim to support young people yet it is the left who supported bringing in cautions for everything which have prevented masses of people finding work. We are talking like stealing sweets at 15 and its on your record forever meaning employers are less likely to employ you. Only the Tories decided to tackle the issue. The left also preach democracy but support individuals unelected by British citizens in the EU Parliament dictating our laws. The left is a complete contradiction of itself. It has got to be fascism in disguise.
Original post by scrotgrot
They effectively haven't had a vote since 1983 so you can understand it. Similar to the SNP though even Scots only started feeling unrepresented by Labour in 1997 I think


What about TUSC, The Greens, Left Unity and all the other minor left-wing parties? There have been plenty of choices. It's almost as though despite abandoning the Labour Party (and many of them have been very insulting towards it), and many having not been members for decades, they feel some kind of proprietary right to the Labour Party and its position, even after having left it and opposed it emphatically. It's a bit strange, maybe even a bit obnoxious
Original post by SignFromDog
I don't think the ends justifies the means, I personally would not be willing to sacrifice my integrity for some petty advantage. When you sign up as a Labour supporter, you have to declare that you support Labour's values and that you are not a supporter of another group/party.

I can't see how any person of substance would be willing to make a false declaration about their political principles to obtain such a marginal advantage, it just seems totally below the belt and a bit slimy


It's actually pretty easy, you just sign a few boxes, I know so many people who have done so.
Original post by SignFromDog
What about TUSC, The Greens, Left Unity and all the other minor left-wing parties? There have been plenty of choices. It's almost as though despite abandoning the Labour Party (and many of them have been very insulting towards it), and many having not been members for decades, they feel some kind of proprietary right to the Labour Party and its position, even after having left it and opposed it emphatically. It's a bit strange, maybe even a bit obnoxious


Wasted vote. Similar story with UKIP types too, other than briefly in 2001 with the Tories there hasn't been an opportunity to express dissatisfaction with Europe since 1975 and xenophobia has been off the table for even longer than that imo

I do agree with your value judgement though for what it's worth, I have little love for the fringe left.
Original post by The two eds
It's actually pretty easy, you just sign a few boxes, I know so many people who have done so.


I didn't say it wasn't easy to do in a technical sense, I was merely pointing out that to do so seems slimy and amoral; a complete abandonment of principles and a sense of fair play in the pursuit of some petty party political advantage. It's the height of moral relativism
Original post by The two eds
I don't understand the left. They claim to support LGBT rights yet allow Islamic views which highly condemn such rights to flourish.


The problem is that the core of progressive politics used to be an economic analysis and a prescription as to how to redress various inequalities. But from the 1970s onwards, many on the left increasingly adopted identity politics, rather than economics, as the core of their ideology.

This meant that they became unmoored from a true policy analysis and instead based their positions in domestic policy on opposing the Conservative position, and in foreign policy opposing the United States. This means that they have to undertake some rather strange mental gymanstics, in order to apply that in foreign policy they ally themselves with extreme bigots and theocratic reactionaries. In domestic policy, they adopt policies that are plainly contrary to traditional progressive thought as long as it permits them to be opposed to the Conservatives (the EU is a good example)
Original post by SignFromDog
I don't think the ends justifies the means, I personally would not be willing to sacrifice my integrity for some petty advantage. When you sign up as a Labour supporter, you have to declare that you support Labour's values and that you are not a supporter of another group/party.

I can't see how any person of substance would be willing to make a false declaration about their political principles to obtain such a marginal advantage, it just seems totally below the belt and a bit slimy


Have you encountered right-wing trolls ever?
Original post by SignFromDog
I didn't say it wasn't easy to do in a technical sense, I was merely pointing out that to do so seems slimy and amoral; a complete abandonment of principles and a sense of fair play in the pursuit of some petty party political advantage. It's the height of moral relativism


Welcome to the real world where all sides play dirty. It has got to the point where we need to attack parties head on. Labour played dirty against UKIP so I'm willing to return the favour.
Original post by scrotgrot
Have you encountered right-wing trolls ever?


I agree such people exist, I simply wanted to make my position clear that they could not subsequently lay claim to being a gentleman or a man of substance, they could not claim to adhere to any traditional English notions of fair play (these are things some Conservatives still care about)

In short, they would appear to follow politics like others follow a football team. It's a horse race. Or a blood sport.
We can ban whoever we like.... and if you're a UKIP supporter then you clearly don't support Labour values and shouldn't be interfering in internal democracy should you?


Original post by MatureStudent36
The police will arrest you and beat you to death with a copy of the Guardian.


I bloody well hope so!
Original post by thisistheend
How are they allowed to bar me from the leadership election? And does this mean that if Corbyn wins, anyone who is a member of another party won't be allowed to join Labour either? So far they just sent me an email but hasn't taken money from card.

fyi, I became a member of UKIP at the general election as Farage was a normal human person, like Corbyn. I'm less fussed about actual policies. Far left, Far Right, it's all good, as long as it's not the damn "centre ground".


My family and I were going to do the same :biggrin:
It's to stop Corbyn from getting elected, because they don't like the fact New Labour is unpopular
Original post by Lord Jon
We can ban whoever we like.... and if you're a UKIP supporter then you clearly don't support Labour values and shouldn't be interfering in internal democracy should you?

I bloody well hope so!


Shouldn't Labour be trying to attract UKIP supporters if it ever wants a chance of power again?
Original post by ChaoticButterfly
If Corbyn is attractive to UKIP voters that's almost 4 million voters up for grabs :beard:

With his immigration policies? Never.
Original post by Lady Comstock
With his immigration policies? Never.


I'd view it like this. No one really offers anything or listens to marginalized people's concerns. It's a pattern that occurs in history, when you have economic problems a sizable chunk of people start rightly or wrongly blaming it on immigrants or some type of 'other'.

If immigration is a problem it is because it is a part of the ideals of weakening labour bargaining power by making sure there is standing army of unemployed and that workers are atomized and not organized. That has been going on for decades. There is no reason why Europe can not address these issues without resorting to a kind of thatcherite nationalism. The sorts of people who are effected by these things have potentially something to gain from Corbynomics as apposed to whatever it is people like Liz Kendle or the so called blairites support ( I do not really know what it is they support, the min wage is part of their legacy but they seem to hate their legacy as well now). But I doubt the right of the labour party will appeal to UKIP voters at all.

Among London public Corbyn is popular with UKIP voters according to a yougov poll.

UKIP voters I know perosnally also like Corbyn (not that may mean much).

Original post by Lord Jon
We can ban whoever we like.... and if you're a UKIP supporter then you clearly don't support Labour values and shouldn't be interfering in internal democracy should you?


A chunk of UKIP voters are the sorts of people Labour should be appealing to.
(edited 8 years ago)
Original post by ChaoticButterfly
I'd view it like this. No one really offers anything or listens to marginalized people's concerns. It's a pattern that occurs in history, when you have economic problems a sizable chunk of people start rightly or wrongly blaming it on immigrants or some type of 'other'.

If immigration is a problem it is because it is a part of the ideals of weakening labour bargaining power by making sure there is standing army of unemployed and that workers are atomized and not organized. That has been going on for decades. There is no reason why Europe can not address these issues without resorting to a kind of thatcherite nationalism. The sorts of people who are effected by these things have potentially something to gain from Corbynomics as apposed to whatever it is people like Liz Kendle or the so called blairites support ( I do not really know what it is they support, the min wage is part of their legacy but they seem to hate their legacy as well now). But I doubt the right of the labour party will appeal to UKIP voters at all.

Among London public Corbyn is popular with UKIP voters according to a yougov poll.

UKIP voters I know perosnally also like Corbyn (not that may mean much).



A chunk of UKIP voters are the sorts of people Labour should be appealing to.


That is funny, every UKIP voter I know hates Corbyn. Who have you been speaking too? The fact the labour voters think a left wing pro uncontrolled mass immigration, pro full EU integration, pro islamism man will attract UKIP voters shows how deluded they are. I just sit back and laugh though because when Jeremy is elected watch people flock to UKIP. At the same time the green vote/SNP vote splits. It's a win win.
Original post by ChaoticButterfly
I'd view it like this. No one really offers anything or listens to marginalized people's concerns. It's a pattern that occurs in history, when you have economic problems a sizable chunk of people start rightly or wrongly blaming it on immigrants or some type of 'other'.

If immigration is a problem it is because it is a part of the ideals of weakening labour bargaining power by making sure there is standing army of unemployed and that workers are atomized and not organized. That has been going on for decades. There is no reason why Europe can not address these issues without resorting to a kind of thatcherite nationalism. The sorts of people who are effected by these things have potentially something to gain from Corbynomics as apposed to whatever it is people like Liz Kendle or the so called blairites support ( I do not really know what it is they support, the min wage is part of their legacy but they seem to hate their legacy as well now). But I doubt the right of the labour party will appeal to UKIP voters at all.

Among London public Corbyn is popular with UKIP voters according to a yougov poll.

UKIP voters I know perosnally also like Corbyn (not that may mean much).



A chunk of UKIP voters are the sorts of people Labour should be appealing to.


Ha I just looked at the poll methodology lol. It involved 1100 adults solely in London. It worked on the basis of share of vote from May. So based on UKIP that means around maybe 80 or less were polled. The poll didn't even account for all boroughs lol. They were mostly Labour boroughs with the highest levels of immigration. UKIP is not even popular in these areas since everyone is a migrant. It failed to account for the UKIP voters who like me support Jeremy because he will destroy Labour. Haha. Yes very reliable. If you showed me a similar poll in the north involving 20,000 UKIP supporters I'd believe you.
(edited 8 years ago)
Original post by ChaoticButterfly
If Corbyn is attractive to UKIP voters that's almost 4 million voters up for grabs :beard:

I've seen Labour MPs say they don't mind Green members voting.

Can everyone on the left stop just blanket labeling UKIP voters as racist. You're just ****ing yourselves over.



Would you actually vote for a Corbyn lead labour party though?

http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/2015/08/owen-jones-right-are-mocking-jeremy-corbyn-because-secretly-they-fear-him

This sort of highlights my feelings on the issue. I grew up and live "oop North" where industry used to be. I'm sick of NuLabour either agreeing with Thatcher's children or spending their time vagina deep in feminist critiques and victim-hierarchy equality bull****.

I would like a party that's left on economics, libertarian on state intrusion on personal freedoms and right on other issues, like military/EU / immigration. UKIP for all it's merits does not address all the issues, even though it would still be better than NuLabour.

I'm not sure whether I would vote for Corbyn in an election, I don't know yet. But I would like very much for him to become Labour leader so as to drag the economic discourse leftwards and redefine "centre politics". I would like to see the renationalisation of every key bit of public utilities and infrastructure so if he doesnt push the Clause IV I would be very dissappointed. Would also like to hear his views on proportional representation.
(edited 8 years ago)
Original post by Lord Jon
We can ban whoever we like.... and if you're a UKIP supporter then you clearly don't support Labour values and shouldn't be interfering in internal democracy should you?




I bloody well hope so!


Laboured abandoned the working class because they're secretly ashamed of anyone outside of their elite metropolitan bubble within the M25.
Original post by thisistheend
Laboured abandoned the working class because they're secretly ashamed of anyone outside of their elite metropolitan bubble within the M25.


No, it was hard headed political calculation, Blair, Mandelson and Campbell had access to a sophisticated polling organisation that did a lot of focus group research and they based their policies and public persona on 'what the people wanted'.
Original post by Fullofsurprises
No, it was hard headed political calculation, Blair, Mandelson and Campbell had access to a sophisticated polling organisation that did a lot of focus group research and they based their policies and public persona on 'what the people wanted'.


That is what disappeared with the decline of the Blairites.

There is no perception that Ed Miliband or any other the current four have the slightest clue what would increase the Labour vote.

From Kendall's strategy of not losing any more votes the the Conservatives to Corbyn's belief that that there is an army of people willing to vote Labour if only they were truly socialist, no-one has crunched the numbers on what would actually add net support.

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