I am a practising barrister - AMAA

Reply 20

CaptainJosh

2

Original post by LadyLaw23

Please say that was a joke... :unsure:

Yes, yes it was.

Reply 21

The Warsmith

18

Do you like banging the gavel?

OP

Original post by LadyLaw23

In relation to pupillage applications, one bit of advice that seems to be given very often is to make one's app/answers 'interesting'. Unfortunately, this doesn't help very much at all, as it is extremely unclear at best what would in fact be considered as interesting. My question therefore is what does that actually mean in a practical sense, and would you be able to give any examples of things/answers which fall into this category, and also of some which attempt it but fail?
NB. Obviously, I don't mean this to be a 'please provide a model answer' type question at all, more asking for examples to put things into context.

I agree that that isn't helpful advice. My assumption would be that the advice to make your application 'interesting' is an attempt to encourage you to make your application stand out, which of course is essential for the paper stage of the pupillage application process.

I would make two points in relation to that advice. The first is that you can only make your application 'interesting' if you yourself are actually 'interesting'. In other words, no amount of flowery language is going to cover up the fact that there is nothing about you or your application that stands out from the crowd. There are many phrases that find there way on to job applications and CVs all the time, with applicants describing themselves as 'motivated', 'hard working', 'team players', and so on. When it comes to pupillage applications simply saying that you have the required qualities is not sufficient; you need to back them up with references to experience or qualifications that you have. In other words, making your application 'interesting' is not a matter of sitting down and improving your average application by wording it in a way that wouldn't look out of place in a Neil Gaiman novel. It's a longer term process than that of actually improving yourself and your application over a period of time.

The second point that I would make, which is related to the first, is that the process of developing yourself into an 'interesting' applicant does involve pursuing interests that you have outside of the law. As hard as you have to work to tick the required academic boxes, this is a career where being personable is also pretty essential, and it's difficult to be personable if you lock yourself away in a darkened room for four years. For example, a good friend of mine in Chambers graduated with a 2:1 from Oxbridge and was frankly always going to be a frontrunner for pupillage. But he also became a qualified football referee at university, something which found its way onto his CV and pupillage applications. It is far from the main reason that he secured pupillage, but it would certainly have made his applications more 'interesting'.

Reply 23

Nigel85

3

Without wishing to hijack Crazy Jamie's thread, I am also a practising barrister and have recently been involved in assessing pupillage applications at my Chambers. One way to make your application "interesting" is to show genuine interest in and understanding of the area of law practised by Chambers. It may not be enough simply to say that you studied that area at university, but if you can show that, for example, you have written an article or an extended essay on a particular area of law then that is an excellent way of demonstrating real interest in it. But ideally you also need to go further than that - can you set out your views on the current law? Can you suggest how it might develop, or areas of uncertainty in the current authorities?

There are lots of candidates who are good enough to be interviewed, but very few who really excel at this aspect of the application. I suspect that applicants for criminal pupillages are often better at this, given the huge amount of practical experience that many of my criminal barrister friends obtained before applying.

I also completely endorse Crazy Jamie's advice above, in particular that wheeling out certain phrases won't get you anywhere. One piece of advice that I was given is to think of your answers as almost telling a story. I think that is interesting from a psychological perspective - as humans we like to be told stories and we remember things better when they are in story form. Perhaps it is therefore a way to stand out to a panel more than simply listing achievements. Obviously there are ways of doing this that would just be cringeworthy and make you stand out for the wrong reasons, but I think it may be worth bearing in mind when crafting at least some of your answers!

Ultimately, how to make your application "interesting" depends to some extent on the set. We are looking for something different to other sets of chambers and possibly also place less of a focus on extracurricular interests. It may be better to think of the advice as being to focus on showing how you meet the criteria that chambers has set in as interesting and compelling a way as possible than to start thinking of ways to stand out and be "interesting".

OP

Original post by hihihihihi

How much do you make (roughly)?

I'm not going to tell you how much I make, mainly because it's too personal. What I will tell you is that from my knowledge other barristers that I know around my level of call (and, thus, practise outside London) make anywhere between £70,000 and £140,000 gross, depending on their practice area, the nuances of their individual practices and the Chambers that they are with. Providing information as to earnings is difficult simply because barristers don't tend to talk to each other about how much they earn, and ultimately we are all self employed, meaning that our individual earnings can vary significantly between each other and even in our own practices from year to year. Ultimately the one takeaway that I would provide is that, subject to a few caveats, even with billing either reducing or likely to reduce in most practice areas, you should still be able to earn enough in this profession to live a comfortable life from a financial perspective.

OP

Original post by Ser Alex Toyne

Do you like banging the gavel?

I've never had the opportunity, mainly because even if I was a judge (which I am not) gavel banging doesn't really go on much in courts nowadays. You might have more chance of getting an answer to your question if you can hunt down an "I am Judge Rinder - AMAA" thread.

Reply 26

happyorca

Do you think that doing IB instead of A Levels (or vice versa) would impact my options and opportunities to become a barrister?

I know you need much better IB points than A level points to get into some law schools, which makes it harder to get in if you've done the IB. Would this make any difference in the long run?

Reply 27

typonaut

17

Original post by Crazy Jamie

What I will tell you is that from my knowledge other barristers that I know around my level of call (and, thus, practise outside London) make anywhere between £70,000 and £140,000 gross,

Sorry, I'm going to call "foul" on that one. That's an almost meaningless statement - not because there's a big range, but because we don't know what your overheads are and thus what the "net" might be. ie you could gross £100,000 and have overheads of £80,000.

Or do you mean something else by "gross"?

Reply 28

exlibris

6

Original post by typonaut

Sorry, I'm going to call "foul" on that one. That's an almost meaningless statement - not because there's a big range, but because we don't know what your overheads are and thus what the "net" might be. ie you could gross £100,000 and have overheads of £80,000.

Or do you mean something else by "gross"?

I agree up to a point - in particular, is that pre or post VAT? But subject to that, a general rule of thumb is to take off about 1/3 to come up with pre-tax income (which would be equivalent to an employee's salary figure).

Reply 29

Tari1997

7

so... do you think anyone who has a law degree from a non russell group uni has a chance?

Reply 30

EasternGrit

5

I'd like to ask you about taking up pupillage (I'm due to start in a few weeks). What would you advise someone to do to prepare? What aspects of the BPTC should be freshest in my mind? Aside from getting up to speed on relevant areas of law and current legal news what else might be useful?

Moving on from preparation - do you have any words of wisdom about pupillage itself? In particular any thoughts on how to make a start on building a practice in areas that interest me (already covered by Chambers) and how to improve chances of securing tenancy?

Many thanks for any thoughts.

Reply 31

typonaut

17

Original post by exlibris

I agree up to a point - in particular, is that pre or post VAT? But subject to that, a general rule of thumb is to take off about 1/3 to come up with pre-tax income (which would be equivalent to an employee's salary figure).

I took it for granted that was excluding VAT, but that's a good point too. For anyone wondering, the VAT registration threshold is currently £82,000 - if you are billing that amount or more, per annum, then you have to register and collect VAT on your billing (ie add 20% to your invoices).

Reply 32

typonaut

17

Original post by Tari1997

so... do you think anyone who has a law degree from a non russell group uni has a chance?

A chance, but a slim chance. Here's some data on juniors called since 2010:

Non-Russell: http://www.indx.co.uk/pupilbase/?mode=stats&rtype=other

Russell Group (excluding Oxbridge): http://www.indx.co.uk/pupilbase/?mode=stats&rtype=russell

Oxbridge: http://www.indx.co.uk/pupilbase/?mode=stats&rtype=oxbridge

You'll note that for England and Wales as a whole nearly 49% of this sample have a connection to Oxbridge, and for London that goes up to 57%.

OP

Original post by happyorca

Do you think that doing IB instead of A Levels (or vice versa) would impact my options and opportunities to become a barrister?

I know you need much better IB points than A level points to get into some law schools, which makes it harder to get in if you've done the IB. Would this make any difference in the long run?

In the long run, I doubt it would make any notable difference. Even if someone reads your application knowing that you need more IB points to study law, any extra credit that you're given as a result is unlikely to be the difference between you securing an interview or not.

OP

Original post by typonaut

Sorry, I'm going to call "foul" on that one. That's an almost meaningless statement - not because there's a big range, but because we don't know what your overheads are and thus what the "net" might be. ie you could gross £100,000 and have overheads of £80,000.

Or do you mean something else by "gross"?

Fair point. Those gross figures are net of VAT (which, incidentally, all barristers pay irrespective of earnings). Overheads will obviously vary from barrister to barrister, but the one third figure that was suggested by exlibris is about right as a general rule of thumb, perhaps slightly high. A large chunk of that will be Chambers expenses at around the 15% mark, the rest predominantly going on travel expenses, resources (books, online subscriptions etc), and training.

Of course as an aside it is worth noting that you do get tax relief on certain purchases that those who are salaried would not, such as computers and cars, so whether you see those elements as expenses in the purest sense is a matter of perspective (most barristers see that tax relief as something of a bonus on items that they would purchase whether self employed or not). So whilst you could look at my net earnings and consider that my pre tax profit, actually that figures in certain elements of tax relief that I'd consider more of a bonus than a strict expense.

Then again, you don't get an salaried benefits such as a pension, which also needs to be factored in as a negative. All things to consider when talking about self employed earnings rather than those that come by way of a salary.

EDIT: If it helps, I've just had a look at my gross vs net earnings in the past couple of years. In the tax year just gone my net takings were 72.5% of gross, and the year before they were 72.6%. So as well as being spookily consistent, my expenses come in at a bit less than a third of gross.

(edited 8 years ago)

Reply 35

typonaut

17

Original post by Crazy Jamie

Fair point. Those gross figures are net of VAT (which, incidentally, all barristers pay irrespective of earnings).

I'm not sure that's true. There's obviously an advantage in being VAT registered if all your clients are also registered, so that you can claim the VAT back on expenses - even if you do not have to register because your turnover does not cross the threshold. But, I'm pretty sure I have seen an invoice from a barrister that didn't have VAT on it (though that is going back some years, and practise may have changed).

Absolutely understand your other points about being self-employed.

OP

Original post by Tari1997

so... do you think anyone who has a law degree from a non russell group uni has a chance?

You have a chance, but you will need to be aware that your prospects are harmed by not going to a Russell Group University. Ultimately pupillage applications are all about ticking the required boxes and making yourself stand out. Unfortunately if you did not go to a Russell Group University your application is weaker in that regard than those who did, and as such you will need to compensate to strengthen your application in other areas. As with any individual's decision as to whether or not to attempt to secure pupillage, that is a factor that you will have to weigh when deciding on whether or not your ambition in that regard is realistic.

OP

Original post by typonaut

I'm not sure that's true. There's obviously an advantage in being VAT registered if all your clients are also registered, so that you can claim the VAT back on expenses - even if you do not have to register because your turnover does not cross the threshold. But, I'm pretty sure I have seen an invoice from a barrister that didn't have VAT on it (though that is going back some years, and practise may have changed).

Absolutely understand your other points about being self-employed.

I can't say I've ever seen a fee note from a barrister without VAT on it, even when sent to clients that are not VAT registered. The only possible exception would be the purposes of a costs schedule, where the losing party would not pay VAT if the winning party is VAT registered, because the VAT would be reclaimed and therefore not an expense. But even in those instances I've only ever seen fee notes accompany the schedules that have VAT on them.

On the VAT expenses point, most barristers around my level of call pay VAT on the basis of the flat rate scheme rather than claiming it back on individual expenses, which is where you pay 14.5% on gross takings inclusive of VAT. In practice the savings are not significant over reclaiming on individual expenses, but the process for calculating the VAT that you owe is infinitely simpler and saves you money on accountant's fees.

(edited 8 years ago)

Reply 38

ExRN

14

Original post by Crazy Jamie

AMAA standing for 'Ask Me Almost Anything', for those who don't know.

I've been meaning to make a thread like this ever since another member made an equivalent thread for those who want to be solicitors. Now that we've reached the point where the latest round of pupillages is in the books, and we have that combination of those who have not obtained pupillage preparing to have another run at it, as well as current or future students (whether BPTC bound or otherwise) facing the start of a new academic year, I figure this is a good time to throw a thread like this up and do what I can to help, inform or guide those with questions about the profession.

I do value my anonymity on this forum, and as such the information that I actually provide about myself is not going to be in any way exhaustive because, unlike trainee or new solicitors, I'm far too easy to identify with the right information. That said, what I can tell you is that I am now around five years call and practise predominantly in personal injury and employment law, though early on in my career I did do enough crime to have something of an insight into that area.

So feel free to ask any questions that you have. I actually go on holiday later in the week, and so there may be a period where I don't get round to responding to questions, but frankly that is also liable to happen when I'm not on holiday as well. All I can see is that I will eventually respond every question that is asked one way or another. I also know that there are a number of other practising barristers that frequent this forum on occasion, and I'd encourage them to get involved in this as well as and when they feel like it.

I only have one question.

What's your favorite crime?

OP

Original post by EasternGrit

I'd like to ask you about taking up pupillage (I'm due to start in a few weeks). What would you advise someone to do to prepare? What aspects of the BPTC should be freshest in my mind? Aside from getting up to speed on relevant areas of law and current legal news what else might be useful?Reminding yourself as to the rules and practice on drafting may be useful, as you will almost inevitably be asked to draft a range of paperwork during first six. Then again, your skills in that regard will naturally develop as you read examples of other barristers' work and get to grips with real cases. Beyond that familiarising yourself with the rules of litigation (either criminal, civil or family, depending on your pupillage) will be useful. There's no need to worry about the more practical skills such as advocacy, conference skills and so on; you'll quickly come to realise just how large the gap is between the BPTC and practice in that regard, and you'll see plenty in first six that'll help you along in those areas.

EasternGrit

Moving on from preparation - do you have any words of wisdom about pupillage itself? In particular any thoughts on how to make a start on building a practice in areas that interest me (already covered by Chambers) and how to improve chances of securing tenancy?

No one expects you to be the finished article on your first day. You'll likely find first six to be daunting at first (and in fact I'd be worried if you didn't), but just remember that this is a learning process, and the barristers that you come across will appreciate that. Don't be afraid to ask questions; it will be helpful early on to identify a couple of junior members of Chambers, possibly those that have most recently become tenants, that you can ask the more straightforward questions to about practice of Chambers generally. The reality is that the BPTC simply does not prepare you for practice, and certainly when you get closer to second six you may need to talk over with another barrister how certain hearings work or points that may come up in a certain type of case. Don't be afraid to do that; asking other barristers questions and/or bouncing ideas off them is very much part of this job.

To give a recent example, last year I basically gave our pupil a crash course in Credit Hire for the first day of their second six because they had never done it before. I didn't judge them for it at all, and indeed much preferred them coming to me so I can give them a half hour overview rather than them spending endless hours digging through the relevant practitioner's text without any sense of direction. It's far better to ask questions when you need to.

The only other thing I would say is that remember that you were offered pupillage because you are good enough to do this job. I don't need to tell you or anyone else on this forum how great an achievement it is to secure pupillage, and you secured it on merit. You can and should work extremely hard during pupillage to demonstrate the right kind of work ethic, but equally you should have faith in your own abilities.

As to the question about developing your practice; the answer may differ slightly depending on the Chambers that you have pupillage with and the practice areas that you're talking about. I'm more than happy to give you advice on that, but it might be best if you PM me with that information so that I can give you more tailor made advice.

I am a practising barrister - AMAA

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