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Immigration Crisis - Am I missing something?

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I thought exactly the same as the OP, How can a genuine refugee refuse food and aid in the face of said 'adversity'. I am all for immigration (being one myself) and also humanitarianism but the fact that they are refusing help in order to go a country that will give them a better deal; in my eyes atleast doesnt strike me as a genuine refugee
Original post by Alaric III
The only difference between them is the documentation, no human can be 'illegal'.

In desperate times like these, the documentation (a temporary visa, perhaps) should be provided to those who need it.


You don't seem to be following the situation. The Hungarians are trying to register them and to give them appropriate documentation, and they are deliberately frustrating efforts to do so. This is because they wish to claim asylum - but only when they have attained their economic goals. In fact, they are not refugees (they have left the safety of Turkey) and are seeking economic nirvana in northern Europe. They are, en masse, cynically and skilfully exploiting the west's idiocy for their own ends.
Original post by tomfailinghelp
Yes, because providing easy documentation to those who cross the sea in rickety boats and thereby endanger the lives of their children is a great way to stop people from crossing the sea in rickety boats and endangering the lives of their children...


I guess you take the Katie Hopkins approach to shooting them all at sea as a deterrent then? Planning to start Britain's answer to the Third Reich are you? I'm sure History will be proud of you.
Original post by Alaric III
they come for a better life and have shown through both their determination and desperation that they're willing to work hard for it.


By 'determination' you mean paying criminal gangs thousands of pounds to break numerous laws, reject help when it's provided by countries they're currently in, and riot and demonstrate against police while disrupting the lives of citizens of towns and cities they're passing through?

They're not 'willing to work hard' for anything, other than a quick, illegal, route to easy street paid for by my taxes. And yours.
Original post by Alaric III
I guess you take the Katie Hopkins approach to shooting them all at sea as a deterrent then? Planning to start Britain's answer to the Third Reich are you? I'm sure History will be proud of you.


Um, no. I suggest that we decline to reward anyone for crossing the sea in boats, and that shortly after the phenomenon will stop. It might be tempting to bend or ignore the law for the sake ostensibly of helping people, but ultimately the law exists for a reason and we cannot just ignore it when there is a crisis - that would be absurd.
Original post by Duncan2012
By 'determination' you mean paying criminal gangs thousands of pounds to break numerous laws, reject help when it's provided by countries they're currently in, and riot and demonstrate against police while disrupting the lives of citizens of towns and cities they're passing through?

They're not 'willing to work hard' for anything, other than a quick, illegal, route to easy street paid for by my taxes. And yours.

Quick? not at all. Cushy? not even slightly.

They're giving up their whole lives on the fraction of a chance to live a better life. Do those pictures do nothing to you?

I can't, I'm sorry. Some people are just too heartless to merit talking to.
Original post by Alaric III
Of course I don't want that, but that's never going to happen so don't be ridiculous. Consider, however, that doing it your way means eventually those border countries are going to fill up and all those migrants are going to come here anyway. It doesn't stop the spread of people at all. It merely just delays it. Neither does it excuse Britain of it's moral obligation to other people. So why worry about it if the people would come anyway? As I've already explained, they come for a better life and have shown through both their determination and desperation that they're willing to work hard for it.


Why does britain have a 'moral obligation' to accept economic migrants? What on earth does that have to do with morality? And the argument that because they broke the law to get here means they'll work hard is frankly bull. I'd be more inclined to say, they clearly have little to no respect for our laws, and also for our culture, which would make me rather not have those sort of people here.

And btw, the law is very clear in terms of claiming asylum. If you want to seek asylum, you must stake your claim in the first country you arrive at. You don't get to land in Greece/Italy/Turkey, then find a travel brochure and go 'oh, isn't Germany looking fabulous this time of year' then head off across Europe.
Original post by Alaric III
Quick? not at all. Cushy? not even slightly.

They're giving up their whole lives on the fraction of a chance to live a better life. Do those pictures do nothing to you?

I can't, I'm sorry. Some people are just too heartless to merit talking to.


So they're economic migrants then?
Original post by Alaric III
I think you'll find they're not, that just you making assumptions to help you sleep better at night. But with regards to the economic migrants (ie. those not coming from war-torn or totally unstable countries), putting yourself in their shoes, can you fault them? That is what many migrants do, between and within Europe and America. It's human nature to try and better themselves, and as long as they try, and contribute to the society, the only thing that separates them from an American in Britain is their nationality. Migrants (especially economic migrants) actually work harder than many native Brits and thus put more into the welfare system than they take out. That is no bad thing. And the scenarios The Sun likes to focus on? They're every bit as rare as the native brits who do nothing for society.


Put youself in a mass murder's shoe, can you blame them? afterall, if you were a psychotic sociopath, that's what you'd most likely do. So, just let everyone do what they want, because if we were them, we couldn't fault them...

It's also human nature to protect what we've got. If I have a stash of food, and you come and try take that away from me, I will kill you or die trying to defend my livelihood. The only reason that doesn't happen is because we have money and the risk of killing someone is worse than the certainty of going out to buy some more food.

But if we were hobos? I'd wring your neck without a seconds hesitation.
(edited 8 years ago)
Am I the only one who thinks the 'heroic' Germans are making things worse by promising paradise to 800000 people, but not doing anything to help the refugees make it there?
Their only option is to put their lives in the hands of these profiteering people smugglers, with tragic consequences.
I think Cameron's announcement today is much more sensible; fewer numbers but making sure the people we do take are actually safe.
Original post by Alaric III
Quick? not at all. Cushy? not even slightly.

They're giving up their whole lives on the fraction of a chance to live a better life. Do those pictures do nothing to you?

I can't, I'm sorry. Some people are just too heartless to merit talking to.


Of course they're wanting to pay to do it quickly - a few days in a lorry or on trains vs maybe weeks or months in an official refugee camp in Turkey. They're paying to take an illegal shortcut. No-one said it was cushy.

While I'm sure the picture of the boy was a tragedy to his family, friends and community, if the father had not been so reckless as to take them on the journey then they would still be here today. Even their aunt in Canada says she regrets giving them the money to do it http://www.standard.co.uk/news/world/aunt-of-drowned-syrian-refugee-children-regrets-giving-family-money-to-flee-to-europe-a2927186.html

Heartless? If you think so. Your opinion makes no difference to me. We don't all live in a land of candy-floss, unicorns and magic rainbows and sometimes life is harsh.
Simply bringing masses of people into the country will do nothing to fix this problem.

Bringing peace to the countries from which these people are fleeing is the issue.

You don't see people fleeing Israel & Jordan as they are democractic and relatively peaceful.

I'm not Anti Immigration at all but seeing the rise of Far Right and Nationalist parties in Europe will soon turn the tide , MASS immigration is not the answer it will destabilise countries and cause social friction and resentment.
Politicians are haunted by the political invasions of Iraq and Afghanistan, where the decision to focus on not controlling the country has led to lawless states developing with some areas not controlled by the government. The solution to the immigration crisis involves the use of the military to set up secure, safe cities in the war-torn countries where immigrants can be housed. These safe cities must be fully controlled by the West, being operated as mini, Westernised countries abroad, where the police, courts, government, and leaders are Western military personnel. As time progresses the size of safe cities can be expanded to incorporate other cities in the country to develop an ever-expanding safe country in the war-torn country. When the safe cities have been expanded to incorporate the entire country, the locals can start having a greater say in local rule but the West's influence will remain in an ever-declining aspect for years after.
Original post by Nigel Farage MEP
Politicians are haunted by the political invasions of Iraq and Afghanistan, where the decision to focus on not controlling the country has led to lawless states developing with some areas not controlled by the government. The solution to the immigration crisis involves the use of the military to set up secure, safe cities in the war-torn countries where immigrants can be housed. These safe cities must be fully controlled by the West, being operated as mini, Westernised countries abroad, where the police, courts, government, and leaders are Western military personnel. As time progresses the size of safe cities can be expanded to incorporate other cities in the country to develop an ever-expanding safe country in the war-torn country. When the safe cities have been expanded to incorporate the entire country, the locals can start having a greater say in local rule but the West's influence will remain in an ever-declining aspect for years after.


I can't recommend this enough

we will never resolve the migration issue unless we start to take drastic action in the countries that are causing these problems.
Original post by MC armani
Clearly there isn't an easy solution to this crisis, given how divided EU countries are on the issue of absorbing these refugees. However, they undoubtedly do have the right to be accepted into these countries and every effort should be made to facilitate this.

What troubles me about this is that many of these refugees are rejecting the aid given to them not only by state governments but also by humanitarian aid organisations such as UNICEF - images from Hungary on the news this morning showing water bottles and food packages being rejected because many of these refugees have decided to walk the >100 miles to Vienna instead, for no reason other than that it is their "dream". This seems to be the same reason given by many of the Calais refugees for attempting to swim the channel - the expectation of superior treatment in the UK.

Correct me if I've missed something in all of this, but aren't these expectations totally unreasonable? As migrants fleeing conflicts, these people are absolutely entitled to seek refuge in other countries that have ratified the UN Refugee Convention. They are being provided in the vast majority of cases with the basic essentials for existence (food, water, shelter etc) until more permanent solutions can be arranged. And yet this treatment is being rejected and cursed at. Unfortunately many of the extremely saddening headlines that have made the news recently are results of their own doing - attempting to swim across the channel in the false hope that their "dreams" will play out over here, or children tragically drowning off the coast of Turkey, not because of mistreatment by the Turkish state, but simply because their parents didn't properly take care of them.

Cliffs: These refugees are entitled by right to seek refuge in other countries, and EU nations are required to do all they can to offer asylum and the possibility of resettlement. But these refugees are not entitled by right to reject aid efforts, pursue misguided "dreams" of living in countries like Germany and the UK, and then blame these nation states when their travails end in tragedy.

Again, if I've missed something in all of this, please enlighten me.


About your comment regarding Turkey they are not impressed with Syria due to ISIS so they may not want to take any syrians into their country, lets not forget the only reason civillians are fleeing ISIS is because they are the main cause of conflict. It is the Americans to blame for all of this crisis they armed ISIS with weapons creating conflict = refugees trying to get away.
Reply 35
Original post by Nigel Farage MEP
Politicians are haunted by the political invasions of Iraq and Afghanistan, where the decision to focus on not controlling the country has led to lawless states developing with some areas not controlled by the government. The solution to the immigration crisis involves the use of the military to set up secure, safe cities in the war-torn countries where immigrants can be housed. These safe cities must be fully controlled by the West, being operated as mini, Westernised countries abroad, where the police, courts, government, and leaders are Western military personnel. As time progresses the size of safe cities can be expanded to incorporate other cities in the country to develop an ever-expanding safe country in the war-torn country. When the safe cities have been expanded to incorporate the entire country, the locals can start having a greater say in local rule but the West's influence will remain in an ever-declining aspect for years after.

The Second Colonization is starting!
Original post by Alaric III
I guess you take the Katie Hopkins approach to shooting them all at sea as a deterrent then? Planning to start Britain's answer to the Third Reich are you? I'm sure History will be proud of you.


What I took from this (the post that you replied to) is that we are practically encouraging people-smuggling by carelessly providing the paperwork to everyone without even thinking about how they will get here. So, we offer people temporary visas and then thousands rush here and die on the journey? These boats are operated by smugglers and I think it's pretty humane to not want to promote people-smuggling. How you can twist this post to the extent that you see similarity to the Holocaust is beyond me.

*this is assuming that you do not give them the paperwork until they arrive in/near the UK, if you did provide the paperwork beforehand (which would be impossible or very difficult to orchestrate) then they would not technically be being "smuggled" but these hazardous crossings would increase
(edited 8 years ago)
If they can afford to pay 1000's of Euros to get to the EU then clearly they are not struggling are they.
I don't get how people can risk their life's like that, I would go as far as saying most are economical migrants.
Most are heading towards the richer softer EU countries such as Sweden and Germany. There are many safer countries they pass
through. I was recently watching this story about one Syrian refugee she passed through Serbia the Hungary (All safer countries) then she got straight to Sweden she paid thousands of euros for the journey. I wander why Sweden because they are a generous welfare state, she can easily get her Swedish passport

I am not a Tory but I am glad that they are being stricter with emigrants imagine having a Labout gov they'd let the whole of Claise over here
(edited 8 years ago)
Reply 38
Original post by Alaric III
Quick? not at all. Cushy? not even slightly.

They're giving up their whole lives on the fraction of a chance to live a better life. Do those pictures do nothing to you?

I can't, I'm sorry. Some people are just too heartless to merit talking to.


Oh please, cry me a river. EU law and the UN Refugee Convention don't cease to exist just because some hormonal teenager like you has decided to read a newspaper for the first time and get all emotional about it.

1) These refugees have every right to seek asylum in the first safe country they encounter - in this case Turkey. Since this sudden and considerable burden is a lot for a single country to bear, a wise course of action might be for the EU to focus its efforts on providing the resources to process the refugees in Turkey before moving onto the process of distributing these refugees among member states for resettlement.

2) Once any of these refugees travel from Turkey to another EU country they cease to be refugees and become economic migrants. Not only this, they are illegal economic migrants because, as they are not yet registered as EU citizens, they are not entitled to move freely within the Union to seek work or settlement.

It's blindingly obvious that the majority of these migrants are rejecting asylum in favour of reaching softer economies like the UK and Germany where they believe (wrongly) that they may experience a better standard of living - this is presumptuous on their part. It's disgraceful that these self-proclaimed "refugees", who are rejecting aid in countries like Hungary and France, are blaming national governments for the difficult but temporary conditions of their asylum. Many of these migrants seem to be under the misapprehension that these European nations owe them a comfortable new life wherever they please. Whether their "dream" is to start a new life in the UK or Germany or Austria is neither here nor there.

The provisions of the Geneva Convention enjoin member states to provide refuge from persecution. Not wish fulfillment to anyone who comes begging.
(edited 8 years ago)
These people are escaping war zones and corruption and poverty, but I feel most have decided to try and make the most of the EU and are strategically journeying through, in order to achieve the best possible outcome economically. They have my sympathy wholeheartedly because I would most likely do the same in their shoes if I could. The EU needs to sort things out and start intercepting large groups of people for proper assessment and processing. Germany's goodwill is being completely abused and its not really the fault of the migrants, but the EU. The wealthiest and most developed EU members should take the most, with poorer members (e.g. Poland) taking a smaller amount and then the lesser developed still (e.g. Bulgaria) taking a much smaller number, and in some cases being given a boost to help them support the numbers entering. Why is this so hard to orchestrate? If the EU is worth its salt politically, this crisis should have been averted.

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