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Are meat eating vets the biggest hypocrites in the history of mankind?

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No, I don't.
Reply 21
I don't really have an opinion on the vets but I think that it must run through their heads and make them question what they do from time to time if they choose to eat meat. I'd just like to make the point about all these posts about it's worst for them in the wild, what an ignorant thing to say. It's not in a pigs nature to be inside a cage its entire life, so what if it's apparently worst in the wild (which I do not believe), it's not a humans choice to make, just because it's worst for them justifies they aren't given a shot at a normal life? What a load of rubbish. Also condoning what we do because of what animals do in the wild really makes me question the intelligence of some people, "but animals eat meat", really?

At the end of the day, you people saying killing animals is humane. There is no way of killing something that doesn't want to die humanely, and there is nothing you can change about that fact.
(edited 8 years ago)
No they are not.

If you think all vets should be vegan or vegetarian you are deluded, and putting many highly trained, highly skilled vets who save countless animals live out of a job because of their eating habits.

Yes, farm animals are raised to be killed and eaten, it's not the vet's fault this is the way life is, don't take it out on them.

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I do value the animals I see on farms, but I also accept that they only ever lived for the purpose of farming. That sounds harsh but as long as the animals are kept in good conditions and I consider that they've not suffered overly muching, I'm happy to eat the meat. I also have some standards like only eating free range eggs etc.

(I'm a first year vet student)
well, the JIBLA (Jewish&Islamic Bacon Lovers Association) is a close second
Original post by LwR
I don't really have an opinion on the vets but I think that it must run through their heads and make them question what they do from time to time if they choose to eat meat. I'd just like to make the point about all these posts about it's worst for them in the wild, what an ignorant thing to say. It's not in a pigs nature to be inside a cage its entire life, so what if it's apparently worst in the wild (which I do not believe), it's not a humans choice to make, just because it's worst for them justifies they aren't given a shot at a normal life? What a load of rubbish. Also condoning what we do because of what animals do in the wild really makes me question the intelligence of some people, "but animals eat meat", really?

At the end of the day, you people saying killing animals is humane. There is no way of killing something that doesn't want to die humanely, and there is nothing you can change about that fact.


I did quite clearly say as long as they had a nice life. I don't support intensive farming in any way.

Or farming animals at all to be honest, but that's for a completely different set of moral reasons
I see no reason for humans to not eat animals, they're tasty. Animals kill each other all the time without remorse, and humans are animals, too. Why should we not take advantage of the planet's resources?

Obviously, it all has to be in a sustainable way.
I'd be more inclined to say that people who claim they care for animals but then reject help to actually do something to help comes along because the person offering its meat are the bigger hypocrites.
No, I asked you a question.
Okay then.

Put it simply: why do you think animals have moral status and why do you therefore think that animal suffering matters? if it is only because they're sentient, i.e. if it's only because they can feel pain and are aware of the fact that they are in pain, then there would be nothing wrong with painlessly killing them. I suppose that's the basis of utilitarian singer-type arguments which many people find convincing.

If there is more, that is if you think animals are "subjects of a life" (you said you don't like Reagan but you dont have to endorse his specific argments) or something like that, if you think that they are complex creatures capable of a "rich" and "fulfilling" lives then clearly killing them even if done painlessly would be wrong. You'd be depriving them of those rich experiences even if you didn't hurt them. That's ultimately why it might be wrong to terminate the life of a person in a vegetative state. Perhaps they might be capable of experiencing some joy and happiness even though they are clearly not mentally alert and are on par with certain non-human animals.

Which view would you lean more towards?
Reply 30
Oh, I always assumed it would be. But that was just an example reason someone might end up being a vet as opposed to any other career.
Gimme a minute to catch up, will respond to everyone properly in a second


I see you've nicely glossed over my point that vets are advocates for animal welfare. I am in agreement that often higher welfare standards should be put into place, but who do you think it is that pushes for these changes? Who do you think it is that advises farmers on how to better manage their livestock.

Again, (planned) death isn't a welfare issue. Life, including it's final moments, are. Moreover I don't know where the idea that euthanasia is always in the best interests came from. It's done for a variety of reasons. Do you think it's 'in the best interests' of animals killed for being 'dangerous dogs'?

Original post by miser
No way, this is a total cop out. Are you saying that a doctor who paid others to farm and kill humans for his or her own enjoyment wouldn't be hypocritical?

On the one hand the doctor supposedly values human life and helps to save it, but on the other he or she financially supports and gains pleasure out of the injury and destruction of humans elsewhere? Either the doctor values the health and happiness of humans or s/he doesn't.

The doctor doesn't get off the hook just because s/he "sees a lot of his or her patients die" anyway, or by pointing out "all things must eventually die".

I missed the part where I said that livestock are killed for enjoyment. Last time I checked it was for a source of food, and other things.
(edited 8 years ago)
Reply 32
Original post by Little Tail Chaser
I missed the part where I said that livestock are killed for enjoyment. Last time I checked it was for a source of food, and other things.

People eat meat for enjoyment and out of choice, not for necessity - at least in wealthy places like the UK.
Reply 33
Original post by redferry
Funny thing is I don't need to justify it, I don't eat meat because it produces high emissions. I just know the argument that killing animals is inhumane is frankly ridiculous.


Killing animals can very often be inhumane, though. A significant proportion of slaughters in secular abattoirs go wrong, which equates to millions of nonhuman animals dying painful deaths every year. And, the vast majority of countries in the world don't even have the laws that, say, Britain has. In the United States, there are no laws regarding the humane slaughter of chickens, for example.

Original post by redferry
Look, I get it, its very easy to attach human emotions to animals despite in most cases the scientific evidence just not being there. I love animals, I don't particularly want to kill them, but I don't think it's the moral abomination you make it out to be because I have actually spent thousands of hours observing animals in the wild, and know it to be a lesser 'evil' than that which they would face in their natural habitat.


You do, unfortunately, present a false dichotomy between domesticated animals kept in farms and animals in the wild. Many vegans and vegetarians advocate phasing out domesticated farm animals, not releasing them into the wild, which is, I agree, largely a world of immense suffering.

Original post by AmberEyes
I do value the animals I see on farms, but I also accept that they only ever lived for the purpose of farming. That sounds harsh but as long as the animals are kept in good conditions and I consider that they've not suffered overly muching, I'm happy to eat the meat. I also have some standards like only eating free range eggs etc.


Investigations of free-range egg farms have demonstrated that they're often not much of a step up, in terms of welfare, at all for the animals. In fact, "free-range" is more of a marketing technique than anything, given that it simply requires that there's a small hole in a shed, which will usually be crowded with hens, through which they can escape and go outside for a few hours a day, before being crammed back in.

Original post by StrangeBanana
I see no reason for humans to not eat animals, they're tasty. Animals kill each other all the time without remorse, and humans are animals, too. Why should we not take advantage of the planet's resources?


"They're tasty" is hardly an argument. Firstly, you commit the tu quoque fallacy: just because nonhuman animals kill each other, doesn't mean that humans should. Secondly, you commit a logically fallacious appeal to nature. Third, your argument implies that humans should be free to go around killing and eating each other, too: after all, animals kill each other all the time without remorse, and humans are animals too.

Original post by StrangeBanana
Obviously, it all has to be in a sustainable way.


The meat industry and sustainability are mutually exclusive concepts, unfortunately. According to the UN Food and Agriculture Organisation, the meat industry is responsible for almost 15% of global greenhouse gas emissions, and the evidence is quite clear that the fewer animal products one has in their diet, the more sustainable it is. This has led the United Nations Environment Program to advocate a shift to a vegan diet: "Impacts from agriculture are expected to increase substantially due to population growth and increasing consumption of animal products. Unlike fossil fuels, it is difficult to look for alternatives: people have to eat. A substantial reduction of impacts would only be possible with a substantial worldwide diet change, away from animal products."

Switching from factory farmed to "organic", "free-range" meat is hardly going to help either. Studies (see here and here) have found that organic and free-range chicken is actually worse for the environment than factory farmed chicken, which is bad itself in terms of environmental damage and the fact that it helps to breed antibiotic-resistant bacteria.
(edited 8 years ago)
"Bubbly concerns", I never said I agreed with the way animals are killed nor do I condone what happens to them because I do wish it to be changed, the point is it is irrefutable to change the basics of human morality without affecting people's beliefs or morality in a way too.
Morality is dictated by the ability to empathise and yes, I AM VEGETARIAN which is why I don't wish to see this happen, however, I am able to see people's views either way and seeing it only one way or in monochrome is completely illogical because there is always a middle.

The ability of empathise with only one side is very wrong because what happens when beliefs conflict and you try to force your beliefs on others, is that morally acceptable?
Animals are subjected to horrific abuse including castration without anesthetic, thrown away in rubbish bins alive and other horrific acts committed by people, I know this because this is what caused me to become vegetarian in the first place, however, lecturing people will only remove their ability to empathise because it will feel like, to them you are forcing your beliefs on them and not having it come to them in their own time and on their own accord.

So, don't take things as black and white as they are, they aren't that simple and the majority of people are in a grey area where their morality pulls them one way but their inability to see what is happening is preventing them from going all the way.

Hence my initial phrase, "Life sucks" because you can't force change, it must happen gradually over time and not forced because you will it so.
Reply 35
I agree with what you say here. I'm not in favour of killing animals for ethically-barren justifications such as that they taste nice.
And this, folks, is how you prevent anyone converting to vegetarianism.
Reply 37
Yes, however I think it's important to note that there are gradients of ethicality at play. It is more wrong, for example, to kill two animals than one, all else being equal. Therefore, people can make better and worse choices when it comes to the ethics of their food consumption, and can be encouraged to do so.
Original post by viddy9
Killing animals can very often be inhumane, though. A significant proportion of slaughters in secular abattoirs go wrong, which equates to millions of nonhuman animals dying painful deaths every year. And, the vast majority of countries in the world don't even have the laws that, say, Britain has. In the United States, there are no laws regarding the humane slaughter of chickens, for example.


Not debating this at all! Which is why I said its fine as long as you are ethical in your meat choices (for example I have no problem with sustainable wild shot meat)



You do, unfortunately, present a false dichotomy between domesticated animals kept in farms and animals in the wild. Many vegans and vegetarians advocate phasing out domesticated farm animals, not releasing them into the wild, which is, I agree, largely a world of immense suffering.


As do I - the emissions (among other types of environmental degradation) from intensive farming, and a number of other farming practice's are horrific.


However there are some pretty chill farm animals out there herded across plains in Africa or Australia, even strolling round British fields. If animals are kept well they don't suffer.


Investigations of free-range egg farms have demonstrated that they're often not much of a step up, in terms of welfare, at all for the animals. In fact, "free-range" is more of a marketing technique than anything, given that it simply requires that there's a small hole in a shed, which will usually be crowded with hens, through which they can escape and go outside for a few hours a day, before being crammed back in.


I buy my eggs from a local producer who rescues ex battery hens. Theyre happy chickens having a great time :smile:

Free range, if intensive, is in many cases worse than shed farming for environmental degradation as there is more runoff. So personally I don't put extra stock on free range, as long as they aren't caged. But as I said, I generally buy local not from the supermarket anyway.





I think really the biggest hypocrites are those who saying killing animals is wrong but aren't vegan.
One of the most idiotic threads I've seen in a while

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