What does "working class" mean?
Is this an irrelevant and outdated term referring to 19th century manual workers, or does it still exist outside the imagination of "activists" and socialist mythology?
Why do socialist activists and commentators cling to the outdated ideas of a rigid class hierarchy?
What defines a working class occupation nowadays? Some modern class definitions say that musicians are sub-working class, nurses middle-class. A traditional Marxist distinction could classify bankers and lawyers as working class.
The Great British Class Survey (Sociology,2013) lists 7 social classes.
Dentists are apparently in the top (upper) class. I'd have thought being a dentist would be a middle
Policemen, midwives, SEN teachers, electrical engineers, teachers etc. are middle class, so why their unions represent them as being working class is a puzzle.
The lowest class included skilled workers like joiners and carpenters, but the class above includes bar staff. Shop owners and musicians are a lower class than care workers and cleaners.
What this suggests to me is that any conception of a class system is ridiculously irrelevant to modern society, and therefore political views based on it are fallacious. Comments please...
Why do socialist activists and commentators cling to the outdated ideas of a rigid class hierarchy?
What defines a working class occupation nowadays? Some modern class definitions say that musicians are sub-working class, nurses middle-class. A traditional Marxist distinction could classify bankers and lawyers as working class.
The Great British Class Survey (Sociology,2013) lists 7 social classes.
Dentists are apparently in the top (upper) class. I'd have thought being a dentist would be a middle
Policemen, midwives, SEN teachers, electrical engineers, teachers etc. are middle class, so why their unions represent them as being working class is a puzzle.
The lowest class included skilled workers like joiners and carpenters, but the class above includes bar staff. Shop owners and musicians are a lower class than care workers and cleaners.
What this suggests to me is that any conception of a class system is ridiculously irrelevant to modern society, and therefore political views based on it are fallacious. Comments please...
Scroll to see replies
Poor is working class
Not poor is middle class
Rich is upper class
Not poor is middle class
Rich is upper class
It means you don't know how to pronounce 'quinoa'.
Original post by ChickenMadness
Poor is working class
Not poor is middle class
Rich is upper class
Not poor is middle class
Rich is upper class
Wrong. Income is not only criterion.
you have to work for a living
middle class you live in constant anxiety and need to follow the rich even at the cost of high debts
rich you don't need to do anything
middle class you live in constant anxiety and need to follow the rich even at the cost of high debts
rich you don't need to do anything
Original post by ibzombie96
Wrong. Income is not only criterion.
Wrong. My ruling is final
Original post by ChickenMadness
Wrong. My ruling is final
I concede defeat.
Original post by Bill_Gates
you have to work for a living
middle class you live in constant anxiety and need to follow the rich even at the cost of high debts
rich you don't need to do anything
middle class you live in constant anxiety and need to follow the rich even at the cost of high debts
rich you don't need to do anything
Except worry that the other two classes are out to get you.
Original post by Fullofsurprises
Except worry that the other two classes are out to get you.
maybe but hardly a big deal with modern day security.
Original post by T.L
Is this an irrelevant and outdated term referring to 19th century manual workers, or does it still exist outside the imagination of "activists" and socialist mythology?
Why do socialist activists and commentators cling to the outdated ideas of a rigid class hierarchy?
What defines a working class occupation nowadays? Some modern class definitions say that musicians are sub-working class, nurses middle-class. A traditional Marxist distinction could classify bankers and lawyers as working class.
The Great British Class Survey (Sociology,2013) lists 7 social classes.
Dentists are apparently in the top (upper) class. I'd have thought being a dentist would be a middle
Policemen, midwives, SEN teachers, electrical engineers, teachers etc. are middle class, so why their unions represent them as being working class is a puzzle.
The lowest class included skilled workers like joiners and carpenters, but the class above includes bar staff. Shop owners and musicians are a lower class than care workers and cleaners.
What this suggests to me is that any conception of a class system is ridiculously irrelevant to modern society, and therefore political views based on it are fallacious. Comments please...
Why do socialist activists and commentators cling to the outdated ideas of a rigid class hierarchy?
What defines a working class occupation nowadays? Some modern class definitions say that musicians are sub-working class, nurses middle-class. A traditional Marxist distinction could classify bankers and lawyers as working class.
The Great British Class Survey (Sociology,2013) lists 7 social classes.
Dentists are apparently in the top (upper) class. I'd have thought being a dentist would be a middle
Policemen, midwives, SEN teachers, electrical engineers, teachers etc. are middle class, so why their unions represent them as being working class is a puzzle.
The lowest class included skilled workers like joiners and carpenters, but the class above includes bar staff. Shop owners and musicians are a lower class than care workers and cleaners.
What this suggests to me is that any conception of a class system is ridiculously irrelevant to modern society, and therefore political views based on it are fallacious. Comments please...
There seem to be some political biases in your comments - for example, it isn't only 'socialist activists' as you put it who accept the existence of social class. In fact, the piece of Marxist theory that is most widely accepted and 100% in the mainstream of economic and political thought is the existence of three broad social classes.
The British Class Survey you refer to seemed to be obsessed with job roles and I agree that the positioning of dentists and the like in that way was nonsense, if that's what it did, although I think it also tried to classify people by their social networks and cultural attitudes.
I would argue that people like policeman and midwifes that you mention are not middle class, but a 'respectable' or 'promoted' part of the upper working class. The middle class is pretty much defined by playing a mediating role between the owners of capital and wealth and those below. Therefore people like lawyers and bankers and senior civil servants are probably upper middles. The upper middle class plays the decisive role in managing the population for the wealth owners. Below them are tiers of 'almost middle class' or 'aspiring to be middle class' people who do professional jobs that require degrees and share cultural aims to be recognised as middle class.
Politicians in the west generally seek to confuse the electorate with reactionary policies by claiming that more people are middle class than is economically the case. This is partly because working class is sometimes portrayed as demeaning in the modern media dialogue and also because there have been sustained efforts to de-educate working class people, preventing them from engaging politically and threatening the new order of a super-rich global elite.
Original post by ChickenMadness
Poor is working class
Not poor is middle class
Rich is upper class
Not poor is middle class
Rich is upper class
OK, so someone who is proud of being "working class" or will always be working class is saying that they never want to earn the median wage. This means that no union leader or Labour MP is working class. Tube drivers and Danny Dyer are upper class. And until recently people on benefits were middle class? Really?
Original post by Fullofsurprises
There seem to be some political biases in your comments - for example, it isn't only 'socialist activists' as you put it who accept the existence of social class. In fact, the piece of Marxist theory that is most widely accepted and 100% in the mainstream of economic and political thought is the existence of three broad social classes.
The British Class Survey you refer to seemed to be obsessed with job roles and I agree that the positioning of dentists and the like in that way was nonsense, if that's what it did, although I think it also tried to classify people by their social networks and cultural attitudes.
I would argue that people like policeman and midwifes that you mention are not middle class, but a 'respectable' or 'promoted' part of the upper working class. The middle class is pretty much defined by playing a mediating role between the owners of capital and wealth and those below. Therefore people like lawyers and bankers and senior civil servants are probably upper middles. The upper middle class plays the decisive role in managing the population for the wealth owners. Below them are tiers of 'almost middle class' or 'aspiring to be middle class' people who do professional jobs that require degrees and share cultural aims to be recognised as middle class.
Politicians in the west generally seek to confuse the electorate with reactionary policies by claiming that more people are middle class than is economically the case. This is partly because working class is sometimes portrayed as demeaning in the modern media dialogue and also because there have been sustained efforts to de-educate working class people, preventing them from engaging politically and threatening the new order of a super-rich global elite.
The British Class Survey you refer to seemed to be obsessed with job roles and I agree that the positioning of dentists and the like in that way was nonsense, if that's what it did, although I think it also tried to classify people by their social networks and cultural attitudes.
I would argue that people like policeman and midwifes that you mention are not middle class, but a 'respectable' or 'promoted' part of the upper working class. The middle class is pretty much defined by playing a mediating role between the owners of capital and wealth and those below. Therefore people like lawyers and bankers and senior civil servants are probably upper middles. The upper middle class plays the decisive role in managing the population for the wealth owners. Below them are tiers of 'almost middle class' or 'aspiring to be middle class' people who do professional jobs that require degrees and share cultural aims to be recognised as middle class.
Politicians in the west generally seek to confuse the electorate with reactionary policies by claiming that more people are middle class than is economically the case. This is partly because working class is sometimes portrayed as demeaning in the modern media dialogue and also because there have been sustained efforts to de-educate working class people, preventing them from engaging politically and threatening the new order of a super-rich global elite.
Many people would think that people doing professional jobs and having degrees (which after all is less than half the population) can't be below middle class "almost middle class" or "aspiring to be middle class".
How can you de-educate someone? Has there been some Illuminati-type conspiracy by which working class people (who we all seem to have great difficulty identifying clearly) are being abducted and brainwashed en masse or something? It would certainly explain the recent success of SNP and Corbyn.
Original post by Fullofsurprises
There seem to be some political biases in your comments - for example, it isn't only 'socialist activists' as you put it who accept the existence of social class. In fact, the piece of Marxist theory that is most widely accepted and 100% in the mainstream of economic and political thought is the existence of three broad social classes.
The British Class Survey you refer to seemed to be obsessed with job roles and I agree that the positioning of dentists and the like in that way was nonsense, if that's what it did, although I think it also tried to classify people by their social networks and cultural attitudes.
I would argue that people like policeman and midwifes that you mention are not middle class, but a 'respectable' or 'promoted' part of the upper working class. The middle class is pretty much defined by playing a mediating role between the owners of capital and wealth and those below. Therefore people like lawyers and bankers and senior civil servants are probably upper middles. The upper middle class plays the decisive role in managing the population for the wealth owners. Below them are tiers of 'almost middle class' or 'aspiring to be middle class' people who do professional jobs that require degrees and share cultural aims to be recognised as middle class.
Politicians in the west generally seek to confuse the electorate with reactionary policies by claiming that more people are middle class than is economically the case. This is partly because working class is sometimes portrayed as demeaning in the modern media dialogue and also because there have been sustained efforts to de-educate working class people, preventing them from engaging politically and threatening the new order of a super-rich global elite.
The British Class Survey you refer to seemed to be obsessed with job roles and I agree that the positioning of dentists and the like in that way was nonsense, if that's what it did, although I think it also tried to classify people by their social networks and cultural attitudes.
I would argue that people like policeman and midwifes that you mention are not middle class, but a 'respectable' or 'promoted' part of the upper working class. The middle class is pretty much defined by playing a mediating role between the owners of capital and wealth and those below. Therefore people like lawyers and bankers and senior civil servants are probably upper middles. The upper middle class plays the decisive role in managing the population for the wealth owners. Below them are tiers of 'almost middle class' or 'aspiring to be middle class' people who do professional jobs that require degrees and share cultural aims to be recognised as middle class.
Politicians in the west generally seek to confuse the electorate with reactionary policies by claiming that more people are middle class than is economically the case. This is partly because working class is sometimes portrayed as demeaning in the modern media dialogue and also because there have been sustained efforts to de-educate working class people, preventing them from engaging politically and threatening the new order of a super-rich global elite.
More sensibly, the problem with the Marxist theory of three broad social classes is that it isn't applicable any more. It's lazy rhetoric. A banker is a worker - a member of the working class. He doesn't own the means of production, he depends on pay and doesn't acquire his income from his capital, and he relies on a salary. The guy who has a small metal-bashing shop down the road does own the means of production, he's bourgeouis. However, commonly both you and I would consider the banker to be the privileged one and that the metal basher less privileged.
"Working Class" is shorthand for a constellation of behaviors and expectations which are in opposition to those of "Middle Class" people.
"Middle Class" behavior is mainly conditioned by the concept of "deferred gratification". We are willing to forgo short-term immediate pleasure in order to access future security. Tertiary education is a fine example. Instead of leaving school and earning money immediately we embark upon gruelling and expensive degree courses. While "Jack the Lad" is flashing his money at loose women in nightclubs we are slaving away to realise the Middle Class dream of a wife and family in our own home.
The Middle Class are the guardians of all that is fine and worthwhile in our country. The National Trust is the epitome of this. Our great Country Houses and Estates are preserved for the Nation by dedicated Middle Class volunteers.
Our wonderful National Health service is staffed by Middle Class doctors who treat the "Working Class" for free.
The obesity crisis is caused by lack of Deferred Gratification. The National Health Service is buckling under the weight of these selfish people.
I hope I have not offended anyone.
"Middle Class" behavior is mainly conditioned by the concept of "deferred gratification". We are willing to forgo short-term immediate pleasure in order to access future security. Tertiary education is a fine example. Instead of leaving school and earning money immediately we embark upon gruelling and expensive degree courses. While "Jack the Lad" is flashing his money at loose women in nightclubs we are slaving away to realise the Middle Class dream of a wife and family in our own home.
The Middle Class are the guardians of all that is fine and worthwhile in our country. The National Trust is the epitome of this. Our great Country Houses and Estates are preserved for the Nation by dedicated Middle Class volunteers.
Our wonderful National Health service is staffed by Middle Class doctors who treat the "Working Class" for free.
The obesity crisis is caused by lack of Deferred Gratification. The National Health Service is buckling under the weight of these selfish people.
I hope I have not offended anyone.
Working class has become far too broad. Most people refer to 'underclass' people as 'working class'. That is absolute nonsense and has no place in any serious discussion. Middle class people seem to like calling themselves working class too.
The key work done on this was by Eric Hobsbawm and E P Thompson many decades ago. But now their analysis seems dated and quaint.
It is hard not to feel that the old white working class culture they described, unionised and working in heavy industry, wearing flat caps, going to the football on a Saturday, fish and chip holidays by the seaside ya de ya is pretty much extinct.
As for politics the right despises them and the left (including, in fact especially, the Labour Party) abandoned them long ago for the far sexier "identity politics" so now their descendants vote for UKIP in droves. If they vote at all.
It is hard not to feel that the old white working class culture they described, unionised and working in heavy industry, wearing flat caps, going to the football on a Saturday, fish and chip holidays by the seaside ya de ya is pretty much extinct.
As for politics the right despises them and the left (including, in fact especially, the Labour Party) abandoned them long ago for the far sexier "identity politics" so now their descendants vote for UKIP in droves. If they vote at all.
Original post by ElephantMemory
Working class has become far too broad. Most people refer to 'underclass' people as 'working class'. That is absolute nonsense and has no place in any serious discussion. Middle class people seem to like calling themselves working class too.
Presumably on the basis that they do actually work for a living.
Original post by T.L
Presumably on the basis that they do actually work for a living.
Doesn't have much to do with it. People aren't unemployed through choice.
Original post by the bear
"Working Class" is shorthand for a constellation of behaviors and expectations which are in opposition to those of "Middle Class" people.
"Middle Class" behavior is mainly conditioned by the concept of "deferred gratification". We are willing to forgo short-term immediate pleasure in order to access future security. Tertiary education is a fine example. Instead of leaving school and earning money immediately we embark upon gruelling and expensive degree courses. While "Jack the Lad" is flashing his money at loose women in nightclubs we are slaving away to realise the Middle Class dream of a wife and family in our own home.
The Middle Class are the guardians of all that is fine and worthwhile in our country. The National Trust is the epitome of this. Our great Country Houses and Estates are preserved for the Nation by dedicated Middle Class volunteers.
Our wonderful National Health service is staffed by Middle Class doctors who treat the "Working Class" for free.
The obesity crisis is caused by lack of Deferred Gratification. The National Health Service is buckling under the weight of these selfish people.
I hope I have not offended anyone.
"Middle Class" behavior is mainly conditioned by the concept of "deferred gratification". We are willing to forgo short-term immediate pleasure in order to access future security. Tertiary education is a fine example. Instead of leaving school and earning money immediately we embark upon gruelling and expensive degree courses. While "Jack the Lad" is flashing his money at loose women in nightclubs we are slaving away to realise the Middle Class dream of a wife and family in our own home.
The Middle Class are the guardians of all that is fine and worthwhile in our country. The National Trust is the epitome of this. Our great Country Houses and Estates are preserved for the Nation by dedicated Middle Class volunteers.
Our wonderful National Health service is staffed by Middle Class doctors who treat the "Working Class" for free.
The obesity crisis is caused by lack of Deferred Gratification. The National Health Service is buckling under the weight of these selfish people.
I hope I have not offended anyone.
While I agree with a lot of your points, I think by saying that the working class are the working class because they are only concerned with immediate gratification is a massive over-simplification of what happens.
Children in middle class families often have much greater expectations on them to do well, which is why they go onto higher education, regardless if they, personally, see the value or not. It would likely be regarded as a failure if they did not. Their parents often have salaries where sending their children to private schools is possible. Private schools where this expectation is instilled further.
Children from a working class back-round don't have the same expectations on them. I've lived in areas where most of the families are surviving off benefits, and now in an area where the generally parents have high paid jobs. The difference in the behaviour and mannerisms of the children from these families are phenomenal - the children from the latter are confident, speak clearly, are interested in politics and the world around them whereas those in poorer areas have absolutely no ambition. In fact, they seem about 5 years younger than those of the same age living in more well-off places.
In my opinion, the only reason those who are 'working class' generally seek immediate gratification is because they are a product of the expectations put on them and the lack of opportunity granted.
lower working class + benefit dependent = UKIP supporter
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