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Could someone explain the ridiculous entry requirements for internationals?

Hey!

I'm a Finnish student applying to a bunch of British universities (Oxford, Warwick, Durham etc.) this year and was looking at Glasgow out of curiosity. I searched for their international entry requirements and stumbled upon this entry requirement table: http://www.gla.ac.uk/media/media_245396_en.pdf

My jaw dropped when I saw their requirements for the Finnish Ylioppilastutkinto:
"Award of Ylioppilastutkintodistus (Certificate of the Matriculation Exam) with L (Grade 7) in at least four subjects." (They didn't even type the word "Ylioppilastutkintotodistus" properly, lol)

And this is their stated minimum entry requirement. They require the best grade in four subjects. This means that you have to score in the top 5% in four different subjects to achieve grades of LLLL. This applies to every subject taken, as the grade distribution is done via a form of normal distribution, which ensures there is no grade inflation and in any given year only 5% of students fail and 5% of students achieve the top grade.

Now when we look at the A-level requirements for an example, they range from AAA-ABB. So you have to score in the top 15-30% in three tests if you are taking A-levels instead of the Ylioppilastutkinto. Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grade_inflation#UK_GCSE_Level_classifications_from_June_1988_to_2015

This is pretty ridiculous. Due to the grade distribution, a Laudatur is basically an A*, as both are awarded to the top 5% (well actually even the A* is awarded on average to 8% of students instead of 5%).

So basically Glasgow is asking Finnish students to provide them with grades of A*A*A*A* while asking others for grades of AAA-ABB.

For perspective: Cambridge and Oxford require grades of LLEEE and LLEE respectively. (E=Eximia Cum Laude Approbatur/6, the second best grade awarded to 15% of test-takers). So the nations two top institutions ask for less than Glasgow.

I'm not sure if I'm able to get a proper answer from here, but I would like to ask you, the students, prospective applicants and other Student roomers, how does the university of Glasgow justify these biased grade requirements? How can a top 100 university ask Finnish students for better grades than Oxbridge? I hope it's due to lack of information, as Glasgow is not the only university with ridiculous international entry requirements. Many even lesser universities seem to have the same problem (man, who even makes these tables xD).

I would mail them, but they did not offer any courses that I would have wanted to study, so I am asking you guys out of curiosity, as I don't want to waste the time of their admissions office with this question, when I'm not actually going to apply. Any insight is welcome!

P.S. I'm not bashing Glasgow or anything, it is a good uni. I just don't see how they can justify their ridiculous entry requirements for Finnish students.

EDIT:

Adding the new stats I found:

People scoring AAA or better at A-level in UK in 2011/2012: 12.7% (Source: https://www.gov.uk/government/public...e-combinations)

Many courses for Glasgow have a requirement of AAB. That adds up to 20% of students taking A-levels.

People scoring 4 Laudaturs or better in the Ylioppilastutkinto in 2015: 1.5614% (Source: https://www.ylioppilastutkinto.fi/im...2015KT3003.pdf)

So the percentage of AAA students or better is over 8 times larger than that of LLLL students. For AAB the same percentage is over 10 times larger.
(edited 8 years ago)

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Reply 1
Like you said I think it is probably due to the admissions being misinformed about the standard grade expectations in Finland, I've seen the same thing happen between Scottish and English Universities not to this extent though lol. If you're interested in applying to Glasgow, I would recommend contacting the admissions board directly. In terms of Glasgow's standard entry requirements (for the UK anyway) , I would say that they try to appeal to students with slightly above average grades for most subjects. Hope this helps :smile:
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Reply 2
Original post by Vivie123
Like you said I think it is probably due to the admissions being misinformed about the standard grade expectations in Finland, I've seen the same thing happen between Scottish and English Universities not to this extent though lol. If you're interested in applying to Glasgow, I would recommend contacting the admissions board directly. In terms of Glasgow's standard entry requirements (for the UK anyway) , I would say that they try to appeal to students with slightly above average grades for most subjects. Hope this helps :smile:


Yeah maybe you're right. I guess it could also be that they are doing it on purpose to ensure that there are more Scottish and UK applicants. If they actually evened out the requirements (to something like LLEE-EEMM), then there would be substantially more applications and admissions from Finland, which would be bad for Scots and the rest of the UK.

Luckily some other top UK universities have more fair requirements ^^
Reply 3
What the...

I'm a French student and the minimal requirement is beyond ridiculous - minimal average score of 16, that's asked by Oxbridge..
Reply 4
Original post by tamara98
What the...

I'm a French student and the minimal requirement is beyond ridiculous - minimal average score of 16, that's asked by Oxbridge..


Hahah I guess they are indirectly discriminating against all international applicants if this is not solely a problem with Finland.

Man they really must hate internationals. Asking for more than Oxbridge in the case of Finnish students and asking the same as Oxbridge for French students.

I believe they are asking for pretty ridiculous (same or higher than Oxbridge) grades from IB students as well.
Reply 5
Original post by Gimmel
Hahah I guess they are indirectly discriminating against all international applicants if this is not solely a problem with Finland.

Man they really must hate internationals. Asking for more than Oxbridge in the case of Finnish students and asking the same as Oxbridge for French students.

I believe they are asking for pretty ridiculous (same or higher than Oxbridge) grades from IB students as well.


I swear ! I mean, 16 is an achievable grade for a very good student, which is understandable for Oxbridge entry requirements but the University of Glasgow - woah :biggrin:
Reply 6
Original post by tamara98
I swear ! I mean, 16 is an achievable grade for a very good student, which is understandable for Oxbridge entry requirements but the University of Glasgow - woah :biggrin:


Yeah and I just looked up some stats for UK and Finland grade distribution in percentages that I didn't notice earlier:

People scoring AAA or better at A-level in UK in 2011/2012: 12.7% (Source: https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/a-level-grade-combinations/a-level-grade-combinations)

Many courses for Glasgow have a requirement of AAB. That adds up to 20% of students taking A-levels.

People scoring 4 Laudaturs or better in the Ylioppilastutkinto in 2015: 1.5614% (Source: https://www.ylioppilastutkinto.fi/images/sivuston_tiedostot/stat/FT2015KT3003.pdf)

So the percentage of AAA students or better is over 8 times larger than that of LLLL students. For AAB the same percentage is over 10 times larger.

In absolute numbers there are 450 students with grades of LLLL or greater in 2015.

867317 students took A-levels in 2011 and 20.2% scored AAB or better. That's 175 198 students.

450/175198=0.002=0.2%

So from the eligible applicant pool only 0.2% are Finnish if they demand grades of LLLL.

There is no way they are not doing this on purpose.
(edited 8 years ago)
I suppose if your going to get a free ride, they should expect you to be the best.


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Reply 8
Original post by munchen102
I suppose if your going to get a free ride, they should expect you to be the best.


Posted from TSR Mobile


If they wanted the best then they should demand A*A*A*A* from uk nationals. Asking to be in the top 1% is a bit too much for a top 100 school whether it's free or not imo.
Reply 9
For Sweden they are asking for the highest grade in all subjects! And we have around 25-30 subjects... Oxford only asks for the A or B (highest, second to highest) grades in the majority of the subjects! That's crazy :eek: Thankfully I applied to some more reasonable universities :smile:
Original post by Gimmel
If they wanted the best then they should demand A*A*A*A* from uk nationals. Asking to be in the top 1% is a bit too much for a top 100 school whether it's free or not imo.


Well they have certain quotas to fill, if they have only X amount of places for EU students (which saas pay their tuition) then it's obviously going to be competitive.


Posted from TSR Mobile
It's exactly the same thing for applicants from Belgium.. They ask for 85%, which is nearly impossible. Your grade depends much on your area of studying and the quality of your school. If you, like me, go to a good school and you study Latin or Maths you almost can't achieve that. 85 means passing with greatest distinction, the highest classification possible.
Reply 12
Original post by larademets
It's exactly the same thing for applicants from Belgium.. They ask for 85%, which is nearly impossible. Your grade depends much on your area of studying and the quality of your school. If you, like me, go to a good school and you study Latin or Maths you almost can't achieve that. 85 means passing with greatest distinction, the highest classification possible.


Yep. Seems like Glasgow isn't really interested in giving international applicants fair consideration when compared to UK nationals.
I'm not sure myself but I guess it's the demand from abroad particularly in China and Egypt where academic standards are high. I'm not sure myself because you probably speak better English than those up north lel
Reply 14
Original post by Gimmel
Yep. Seems like Glasgow isn't really interested in giving international applicants fair consideration when compared to UK nationals.


Original post by Will98765
I'm not sure myself but I guess it's the demand from abroad particularly in China and Egypt where academic standards are high. I'm not sure myself because you probably speak better English than those up north lel


"International" (ie. as opposed to EU) students pay high fees so are actually more valuable for universities.

e.g. http://www.gla.ac.uk/undergraduate/fees/#/tuitionfeesforinternationalstudents
£14k pa upwards depending on course at Glasgow
Reply 15
Original post by jneill
"International" (ie. as opposed to EU) students pay high fees so are actually more valuable for universities.

e.g. http://www.gla.ac.uk/undergraduate/fees/#/tuitionfeesforinternationalstudents
£14k pa upwards depending on course at Glasgow


By international I was referring to EU nationals. I am aware, that overseas students most likely are very valuable to these universities on financial grounds.

I just find it to be pretty hypocritical that they advertise how they want to give all students of certain level equal consideration in the application process, but in effect they prevent anyone but the top 1% of the EU students in any cohort to apply with their ridiculous requirements. While at the same time dishing out offers of AAB to UK nationals.

I mean if they were as harsh on UK nationals and ranked in the top 10 in Europe at least, then I could understand these requirements. But as of now, there really is no academic justification for these requirements, especially given the fact, that A-levels have been troubled by grade inflation, whereas the Finnish Ylioppilastutkinto has not, thanks to the method of using normal distribution when allocating grades in each exam taken (like in many other EU qualifications).

You could say there is something fishy about the fact that your minimum entry requirements are far above that of Oxford or Cambridge (and the Ivy League), while at the same time you rank in the bottom of top 100 in global university rankings.
(edited 8 years ago)
Reply 16
Original post by Gimmel
By international I was referring to EU nationals. I am aware, that overseas students most likely are very valuable to these universities on financial grounds.

I just find it to be pretty hypocritical that they advertise how they want to give all students of certain level equal consideration in the application process, but in effect they prevent anyone but the top 1% of the EU students in any cohort to apply with their ridiculous requirements. While at the same time dishing out offers of AAB to UK nationals.

I mean if they were as harsh on UK nationals and ranked in the top 10 in Europe at least, then I could understand these requirements. But as of now, there really is no academic justification for these requirements, especially given the fact, that A-levels have been troubled by grade inflation, whereas the Finnish Ylioppilastutkinto has not, thanks to the method of using normal distribution when allocating grades in each exam taken (like in many other EU qualifications).

You could say there is something fishy about the fact that your minimum entry requirements are far above that of Oxford or Cambridge (and the Ivy League), while at the same time you rank in the bottom of top 100 in global university rankings.


Do they say they give equal consideration to EU applicants? TBH I'm not surprised they have higher requirements for non UK applicants. They get £9kpa fees from non Scottish UK students so they are attractive to Scottish unis. And then Scotland has a limited budget to share between Scottish students and EU students, it makes sense for them to give priority to local students.

If you don't like it apply elsewhere... :wink:


Posted from TSR Mobile
A lot of the Scottish unis do it deliberately because of funding pressures - you're much less valuable to them than a student from England, so they have relatively low A-Level requirements. It's a consequence of our bat**** crazy funding system for higher education I'm afraid.
Reply 18
Original post by jneill
Do they say they give equal consideration to EU applicants? TBH I'm not surprised they have higher requirements for non UK applicants. They get £9kpa fees from non Scottish UK students so they are attractive to Scottish unis. And then Scotland has a limited budget to share between Scottish students and EU students, it makes sense for them to give priority to local students.

If you don't like it apply elsewhere... :wink:


Posted from TSR Mobile


Oh yes they do, like any other universities. And the last time I checked, your own national laws and EU-laws actually require them to do so. Equality and anti-discrimination legislation is pretty bothersome, eh?

I'm not applying to Glasgow at all, even though I am in the lucky few Finns who satisfy the requirements. Doesn't mean that I couldn't voice my critique of their discriminatory admission policies.

Original post by Saoirse:3
A lot of the Scottish unis do it deliberately because of funding pressures - you're much less valuable to them than a student from England, so they have relatively low A-Level requirements. It's a consequence of our bat**** crazy funding system for higher education I'm afraid.

It's pretty interesting how Finland is able to offer free education to all international and EU-applicants and admit foreign students on the exact same criteria as they admit nationals, without tuition fees. (E.g. The same admission test for everyone and the best applicants get the places, regardless of their background).

What on earth is Scotland doing wrong? Seeing as our countries are roughly equal in size (5m population) I do not see how you could not be able to finance your universities in a sensible manner. Of course the Finnish system is it's own mess, but at least it doesn't openly discriminate against prospective applicants.
(edited 8 years ago)
Original post by Gimmel
Oh yes they do, like any other universities. And the last time I checked, your own national laws and EU-laws actually require them to do so. Equality and anti-discrimination legislation is pretty bothersome, eh?

I'm not applying to Glasgow at all, even though I am in the lucky few Finns who satisfy the requirements. Doesn't mean that I couldn't voice my critique of their discriminatory admission policies.


I could equally argue it's unfair that if I wanted to study elsewhere in the EU I'd have to learn the local language, and I'm far less likely to get good grades in a test for that than a local student. Don't blame Glasgow here - they really don't have much choice. The alternative would be to get flooded with EU students, then have to make drastic cutbacks that would see staff members lose their jobs the the university plummet down the rankings.

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