Nottingham Undergrad Admissions - ignore if you don't care.
Well, some of you may not care, but anyone interested here's some info I acquired. Tonight we had dinner with the head of undergrad admissions at Nottingham... he's the one who reads everyone's form and gives out all the offers etc.
Firstly, since the LNAT and upping the standard to AAA their applications have halved. However, he said it was very marked that only the weaker applicants had stopped applying.
Their quota for home students is 157, however he made approximately 500 offers taking into accoutn people who wouldn't accept them. Their quota for internaitonals is 60. They haven't met this quota, and that's why they're in extra to recruit more. Apparently last year they took 12 HKers who turned up in August with no UK uni to go to!
LNAT: for HOME STUDENTS + EU he said the minimum he required was 18. This was the average score of all applying, which ranged from 1-28 in score. He doesn't read the essay, because he can't be bothered basically!
PS + Reference: effectively ignored, as schools drill people. He said he found it 'amusing when people wrote about how they wanted to help the world'. We asked him if he would mind people putting that they wanted to make money, and he said it would have no bearing on their application at all, and would probably help them since he got sick of reading the same phony bilge over and over.
If I remember anything else I will tell, but it basically confirmed a lot which I thought about the process and I hope it can be helpful to prospective applicants in the future.
Re: Nottingham Undergrad Admissions - ignore if you don't care.
Haha- that's very interesting, sort of confirmed my feelings about the whole process too.
So basically when applying to Nottingham (and probably most other top law schools as well) the main things considered are A Levels and LNAT followed by GCSEs (my assumption in terms of ranked importance).
And the whole "helping the world" drill. What a load of bull****. If you want to help the world do medicine! I think I'd get fed up hearing that if I was an admissions tutor too.
Anyway, if you manage to remember any more gleams of information definitely do tell!
Re: Nottingham Undergrad Admissions - ignore if you don't care.
Yes indeed, it also confirmed my theory for why they were recruiting in extra... they do have a quota of internationals they need to hit! However, he said he was very against that quota and would be fighting to get it down. Whether he can succeed, however, is a question of time.
Re: Nottingham Undergrad Admissions - ignore if you don't care.
Originally Posted by AdamTJ
And the whole "helping the world" drill. What a load of bull****. If you want to help the world do medicine! I think I'd get fed up hearing that if I was an admissions tutor too.
Wow. So no one that wants to help the world should do law, eh? Amazing.
Re: Nottingham Undergrad Admissions - ignore if you don't care.
Originally Posted by moosaman
Wow. So no one that wants to help the world should do law, eh? Amazing.
Law at university is an academic discipline. It's not necessarily a pre-cursor to actually helping lots of people. Medicine is much more vocational.
In anycase, I'd argue that law is a much more self-serving profession than medicine. I obviously can't speak for everyone, but I'd say that the money that's potentially availabe in law is far more interesting than justice being done to most people. That's why everyone talks about corporate law and never criminal.
This is very off topic though. If you think it's a worthy enough subject to have a debate on, then start a new thread about it.
Re: Nottingham Undergrad Admissions - ignore if you don't care.
Just as a further point before I go to bed, I'm zonked and pretty merry from red wine (love it!), he was also the first (admittedly ex-) academic (stayed on in a part time position as head of admissions) who said the 'City is a very interesting and rewarding career route, although it is hard work'. I've never heard any other academic say it was good lol. IN fact, most of them seem to resent the fact that they teach us, then everyone runs off to the City!
It's not a pre-req that you don't want to help people... but it certainly doesn't seem to matter what you write on your PS that much. Considering the amount people stress over them, this is an interesting and perhaps surprising revelation straight from the horse's mouth. I mean, I suspected as much (and he said references aren't worth the paper they're writtenon as every student is frequently cited as 'the best') but couldn't prove it until now. And even still, it's only one law school.
Re: Nottingham Undergrad Admissions - ignore if you don't care.
Give it a few years and personal statements just might go the way of A-level coursework. Perhaps it could be replaced by something more orientated around 'briefly describe activities you've done', or something else that doesn't have so much scope for meaningless drivel or hiring goons to do it for you.
Re: Nottingham Undergrad Admissions - ignore if you don't care.
your the man, i just posted in the nottingham law forum, my firend is thinking of applying through extra to law at nottingham she's a home student and already has decent offers, from what you said it looks essentially like she stands no chance, i shall now go warn her thanks
Re: Nottingham Undergrad Admissions - ignore if you don't care.
Originally Posted by Lewisy-boy
PS + Reference: effectively ignored, as schools drill people.
Music to my ears. Also confirms what I've suspected (and hoped) for a while about most admissions tutors.
Originally Posted by Lewisy-boy
He doesn't read the essay, because he can't be bothered basically!
Very worrying. The essay is just as integral a part of the LNAT as the multiple choice score. Without the essay, the test only measures a very narrow subset of skills.
Re: Nottingham Undergrad Admissions - ignore if you don't care.
I regret that I don't apply for this university as the quoto for international students has not met. Of course Nottingham's Law School is one of the best in UK in my opinion. And I can understand the head who selects applicants, really.
Re: Nottingham Undergrad Admissions - ignore if you don't care.
Originally Posted by AdamTJ
So basically when applying to Nottingham (and probably most other top law schools as well) the main things considered are A Levels and LNAT followed by GCSEs (my assumption in terms of ranked importance).
I wouldn't bunch all the Law schools together, I actually think they all seem to differ greatly in their approach... Especially, within Oxbridge, where even the collegiate system seems to have differences regarding application. For e.g. one of my mates applied to Selwyn, she had no written exam, I had a 90 minute one at Lucy Cavendish... In my interview for Cambridge, they went through my personal statement with me, asking me lots of questions about it.
Essentially, I just wouldn't so hasty as to say all the top uni's adopt the same methodology.
Re: Nottingham Undergrad Admissions - ignore if you don't care.
alsen: you should apply to Nottingham via UCAS extra... you would have a good chance if you have good grades! I don't think they're desperate for internationals to have sat the LNAT either. In fact, it was being discussed between him and a Singaporeanguy about axing it for Singaporean applicants. Apparently they sit something called the 'general paper' which they assumed was very smilar to GS; in fact, it's absolutely brick hard and they're considering using it instead. However, the whole Consortium has some sort of contract with Pearson that EVERY applicant will sit it so they're not sure how to get round it... even though they appear to have managed with the random HK students!
I must admit I was a little surprised by the esay thing too... but for one man to read that many essays it would be rather straining. I think what he basically meant was that if you didn't get 18 you got no further (as that wasthe average score fo applicants). The ones with very high scores basically he looked no further, but the borderlines he maybe took a quick skim through it. However, you have to ask yourself this: maybe Nottingham signed up to LNAT purely because they wanted to see the multiple choice section? Also, there are alot of recruitment exams out there similar to that section, but hardly anywhere asks you to write an essay... so maybe it's less useful than you think and more of a hindrance given that they have to read it!
Re: Nottingham Undergrad Admissions - ignore if you don't care.
The stipulation that everyone has to sit the test is between LNAT and the universities, not LNAT and Pearson! It's one of the conditions that LNAT universities agree to on signing up. On the other hand, granting dispensations from sitting the test in exceptional circumstances still seems to be the prerogative of individual universities.
I don't see the problem with asking Nottingham to read the LNAT essay (although I'm pleased by the implication that they don't have time to read the personal statement or - especially - the reference either!) If they only have one man doing all undergraduate admissions for the subject (one with a large number of applicants), maybe they should reconsider that rather than neglecting 50% of the LNAT test.
Re: Nottingham Undergrad Admissions - ignore if you don't care.
Originally Posted by Visiting_Babylon
I wouldn't bunch all the Law schools together, I actually think they all seem to differ greatly in their approach... Especially, within Oxbridge, where even the collegiate system seems to have differences regarding application. For e.g. one of my mates applied to Selwyn, she had no written exam, I had a 90 minute one at Lucy Cavendish... In my interview for Cambridge, they went through my personal statement with me, asking me lots of questions about it.
Essentially, I just wouldn't so hasty as to say all the top uni's adopt the same methodology.
Yep, I would exclude Oxbridge from that group as they have a much more intensive admissions process that anybody else. Each university, and each college within that will have its own policy.
However, I can't imagine it differs that wildly from university to university otherwise.
But fair enough, there is some merit in what you're saying.
Re: Nottingham Undergrad Admissions - ignore if you don't care.
Actually solemn... he seemed to suggest that since it was in their contract with Pearson, that they would be in breach if they started exempting people. Therefore, it wouldn't be a good idea to make it an official policy.
Re: Nottingham Undergrad Admissions - ignore if you don't care.
Sorry to be a smarty-pants (again), but the original agreement setting up LNAT reads:
Subject to provisions 16, 17, and 18 below, the signatory Law Schools commit themselves not to
consider any applicant for any undergraduate law programme (except a joint programme with another
school or department in the same institution) unless that applicant has attempted all components of
the LNAT at its most recent annual administration.
Paragraph 16 allows the executive committee to exempt a class of applicants, paragraph 18 exempts admissions through Clearing, and paragraph 17 preserves a university's discretion to grant an exemption where
requiring the candidate to submit to a test under this agreement would be inappropriate in all the circumstances.
This discretion can be used only in individual cases, and not to exempt a whole class of applicants.
Re: Nottingham Undergrad Admissions - ignore if you don't care.
Yes amongst themselves... but if someone else can sue the consortium, they're not likely to do it are they!
Parties can agree whatever they want amongst themselves, but if they have external obligations en mass they have to stick to them. If such an obligation is that all applicatns will sit the test, then so be it. A failure to make all sit it would constitute a breach of that contract. I'm not even 100% sure that such a clause actually exists, but if it does then it restrict the operations of the universities. Are you suggesting that it doesn't and that they're original agreement prevails?
Re: Nottingham Undergrad Admissions - ignore if you don't care.
Originally Posted by Lewisy-boy
Well, some of you may not care, but anyone interested here's some info I acquired. Tonight we had dinner with the head of undergrad admissions at Nottingham... he's the one who reads everyone's form and gives out all the offers etc.
Firstly, since the LNAT and upping the standard to AAA their applications have halved. However, he said it was very marked that only the weaker applicants had stopped applying.
Their quota for home students is 157, however he made approximately 500 offers taking into accoutn people who wouldn't accept them. Their quota for internaitonals is 60. They haven't met this quota, and that's why they're in extra to recruit more. Apparently last year they took 12 HKers who turned up in August with no UK uni to go to!
LNAT: for HOME STUDENTS + EU he said the minimum he required was 18. This was the average score of all applying, which ranged from 1-28 in score. He doesn't read the essay, because he can't be bothered basically!
PS + Reference: effectively ignored, as schools drill people. He said he found it 'amusing when people wrote about how they wanted to help the world'. We asked him if he would mind people putting that they wanted to make money, and he said it would have no bearing on their application at all, and would probably help them since he got sick of reading the same phony bilge over and over.
If I remember anything else I will tell, but it basically confirmed a lot which I thought about the process and I hope it can be helpful to prospective applicants in the future.
Excellent. You just need to go get the Warwick and/or Bristol Admissions tutors drunk now and get me a damn offer!
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