The Student Room Group

Britain could face a crisis in the education system.

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Original post by MrMackyTv
Wait so the teachers threw books at the kids


Only if there wasn't one of these to hand

From what I have actually seen and I've looked at it quite a lot because I've considered being a teacher. There are shortages in certain areas (science subjects) and there are too many applicants in others (primary education). The problem is those in said science subjects often are earning more money so tempting them is not easy.

The government obviously attempted to do so with a "high" bursary in post graduate teaching certs but when they hit the job market they realize the pay is poor and quit. I don't see this situation resolving unless the pay/conditions improve for these teachers but in a lot of other areas there is clearly less of a shortage and the government offer no incentive at all for these subjects.
Original post by ron_trns
From what I have actually seen and I've looked at it quite a lot because I've considered being a teacher. There are shortages in certain areas (science subjects) and there are too many applicants in others (primary education). The problem is those in said science subjects often are earning more money so tempting them is not easy.

The government obviously attempted to do so with a "high" bursary in post graduate teaching certs but when they hit the job market they realize the pay is poor and quit. I don't see this situation resolving unless the pay/conditions improve for these teachers but in a lot of other areas there is clearly less of a shortage and the government offer no incentive at all for these subjects.


The unions are resistant to using market salaries to fix STEM recruitment gaps... and imo they do have a bit of a point, I can see it's not really a job you want people going into if they're not motivated by liking and wanting to help kids.

It's not as if the subjects where teacher recruitment is difficult are the only ones with any value to society, I love STEM subjects but my sister didn't... the only subject she says she got anything out of was drama, she's ended up as a successful & well paid sales manager and says it was mainly due to the skills (e.g. confidence & resilience) she learned by doing school drama.
Original post by MrMackyTv
I agree with you. What I also find hard to understand is that David Cameron did say that education was priority, yet still it doesn't seem like he's putting it first? It's not just how they are perceived from parents, it's also from the students because teachers aren't really that powerful in the classroom. Students can choose when they want to behave and when they don't. Being a secondary school student myself, I see the amount of disrespect they get five days a week 6 hours a day... it's sad. The government are definitely wrong on education, they can't seem to get it right. They don't listen to the professionals, which are the teachers because they are the ones standing in front of the classroom not them.


They don't listen to the teachers because the NUT continues to roadblock any changes, goes on strike and may be politically motivated. They also advocate a libertarian style of education and focus on personal development while the Asians continue to roar forward with an academic approach.

Its worth saying that one of the teaching unions (albeit a small one) does largely support the Tory reforms.

Original post by MrMackyTv
Ahh ok :smile: It's because I'm going to have the letter grades and number grades mixed up, so I'm saying for anyone else they might have trouble looking for a job because some employers will be confused, since you cannot directly compare the two grades.


I imagine with the English Bac the idea will be to move to a US style GPA. The market will within a year or two judge the required score.
Original post by Joinedup
The unions are resistant to using market salaries to fix STEM recruitment gaps... and imo they do have a bit of a point, I can see it's not really a job you want people going into if they're not motivated by liking and wanting to help kids.

It's not as if the subjects where teacher recruitment is difficult are the only ones with any value to society, I love STEM subjects but my sister didn't... the only subject she says she got anything out of was drama, she's ended up as a successful & well paid sales manager and says it was mainly due to the skills (e.g. confidence & resilience) she learned by doing school drama.


I didn't know the unions were against this, that's pretty detrimental to be honest. Just because someone wants to get into teaching but wants to get paid a decent amount doesn't mean they are not motivated to teach children. I myself would love to teach more than what I am currently doing (I have actually taught briefly). I would take a cut but I wouldn't take half of my current salary - i'm earning more than head teachers. They're not going to get any recruits because many people even who love teaching (myself inc) think like this.

I don't think that STEM subjects are the only subjects that offer value, lots of subjects are needed for sure. However STEM graduates are usually paid more in their career. Not to mention STEM subjects are in the greatest shortage and supply and demand definitely still applies to teachers. I know at least two other people in my profession that considered teaching but couldn't because the market is so good (I'm computer science).

I do believe that eventually the gov will fold and something has got to give because if the science teacher shortage continues, which is being implied from the ever increasing bursaries to study at uni level (which won't solve anything because the market rates are so low). Then this is only getting worse.
Original post by MrMackyTv
Wait so the teachers threw books at the kids or did like the good kids throw it at the bad kids so they behave?


Teachers threw books at kids for not behaving/listening. One of mine threw board pens for getting the answer wrong and if you caught it you got a second chance to get it right. Back in the ol' days of 2006.
Either:
a) not enough money being poured into state education
b) too many people on state education

Original post by MrMackyTv
Immigrants is actually one factor but I don't think it's mainly because of that.


Immigrants might make it cheaper to teach, since it opens the labour market to a larger pool of applicants.
Original post by DiddyDec
Teachers threw books at kids for not behaving/listening. One of mine threw board pens for getting the answer wrong and if you caught it you got a second chance to get it right. Back in the ol' days of 2006.


That's a very interesting style of teaching.

Original post by justinetsr
Either:
a) not enough money being poured into state education
b) too many people on state education



Immigrants might make it cheaper to teach, since it opens the labour market to a larger pool of applicants.


Yes but how many of those immigrants come here to teach? And also how many of them are children, who need education, most likely state education. You are bringing up good points but I think it's more than just two options.
Original post by MrMackyTv
That's a very interesting style of teaching.


It is a method that works, it makes you respect your teachers a lot more.
nonsense, public pay should be brought down a LOT more! considering private sector workers create the wealth!

most teachers i know are teachers because simply they do not have any other alternative, if they leave. Then great we get rid of another terrible teacher. I know great teachers who would work for a lot less.
(edited 8 years ago)
Original post by DiddyDec
It is a method that works, it makes you respect your teachers a lot more.


I wouldn't respect a teacher who physically abuses me... but if you do I respect that :smile:
Original post by Bill_Gates
nonsense, public pay should be brought down a LOT more! considering private sector workers create the wealth!

most teacher i know are teacher because simply they do not have any other alternative, if they leave. Then great we get rid of another terrible teacher. I know great teacher who would work for a lot less.


That doesn't really work though when there is a shortage of teachers. Then we get poor substitutes who know nothing about a subject teaching children said subject.
Original post by MrMackyTv
I wouldn't respect a teacher who physically abuses me... but if you do I respect that :smile:


Its not physical abuse as such. You have the opportunity to dodge and catch. They were never thrown hard enough to do any damage either.

You can't even get close to a child now without being pulled in for hurting them. There is nothing teachers can do that will actually stop bad behaviour. It is one of the worst jobs in the world.
Original post by ron_trns
That doesn't really work though when there is a shortage of teachers. Then we get poor substitutes who know nothing about a subject teaching children said subject.


Higher pay does not suddenly create great teachers. You need to WANT to do the work. It's the same for nurses, we have great nurses because they care. It's the same for teachers.

We need to make cut backs regardless.
Original post by Bill_Gates
nonsense, public pay should be brought down a LOT more! considering private sector workers create the wealth!

most teachers i know are teachers because simply they do not have any other alternative, if they leave. Then great we get rid of another terrible teacher. I know great teachers who would work for a lot less.


The best teachers work in private schools.
Original post by Bill_Gates
nonsense, public pay should be brought down a LOT more! considering private sector workers create the wealth!

most teacher i know are teacher because simply they do not have any other alternative, if they leave. Then great we get rid of another terrible teacher. I know great teacher who would work for a lot less.


I think it does the opposite of that, proof here. Correct me if I'm wrong.
Original post by DiddyDec
Its not physical abuse as such. You have the opportunity to dodge and catch. They were never thrown hard enough to do any damage either.

You can't even get close to a child now without being pulled in for hurting them. There is nothing teachers can do that will actually stop bad behaviour. It is one of the worst jobs in the world.


Lol I was just kidding. I have those sort of teachers, it isn't really physical abuse...

Nothing will stop bad behaviour, that's the problem. It really depends on where you teach. Some places, teachers are paid a lot of money and students respect them, so in those places it would be one of the best jobs you could get, you could say it's like being a doctor here.

The problem is, the salary just isn't good. £29,000 a year is not a job I would like to stay in, that's why even long-term teachers will eventually leave for a higher paying job.
Original post by Bill_Gates
Higher pay does not suddenly create great teachers. You need to WANT to do the work. It's the same for nurses, we have great nurses because they care. It's the same for teachers.

We need to make cut backs regardless.


Yeah but lower pay leads to people not taking the jobs, that's partly the reason we have a shortage. Nobody is going to do work, even if they like it for free. This especially rings true in the higher paid sectors in which we are trying to tempt teachers to come from.
Original post by MrMackyTv
I think it does the opposite of that, proof here. Correct me if I'm wrong.


erm no! it's the raw basis of economics private sector creates all value.
Original post by DiddyDec
The best teachers work in private schools.


Disagree. That's more on the basis of a tutor i.e they have less people in the class room thus having more time per student.

I do agree if you have a smaller class you have better student results. Students who have tutors also fair much better as they have that 1 to 1 time.

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