A thought experiment regarding the Israeli-Palestinian conflict (May offend).
Alot of people seem to be disgusted with Israel`s treatment of the Palestinian conflict but what interests me is why and is the motives what people think it is.
What Im going to propose is controversial.
The basis of my argument is that most muslims and Arabs only care about the plight of the Palestinians because its the Israelis doing the oppressing and if it was a muslim state doing it instead,their plight wouldnt get as much recognition.
Before I begin,lets take a look at some real life examples.
Look at the Darfur conflict.The mainly Arab Sudanese government has long practiced a policy that can only be described as "Arab apartheid"agaisnt blacks,including their so called "fellow muslims"whose only crime happens to be that they are black.Where was the outcry from the muslim world ?One say the black Darfurians are the wrong kind of muslims.
http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/commentators/ed-husain-where-is-the-muslim-anger-over-darfur-1769962.html
Look at the case of etnic minorities during Saddam`s Rule .Saddam discriminated against Shias and Kurds and committed a campaign of genocide against the Kurds.He used poison gas agaisnt Kurdish civilians at Halabja.Condemnation from Arab states ?Zero.Saddam didnt even try to cover what he did.Why ?No one ,not the muslim world or the West ,would do anything about it .
Saudi Arabia`s discrimination against its Shia minority ?Apart from Iran,very few muslim countries and barely any Arab ones have condemned Saudi Arabia.Even when the hajj disaster happened,not even the first ,most muslim countries didnt say anything,even though Saudi incompetency was at blame.
And there are countless other cases.So down to the thought experiment.
Imagine the six day war never happened and the Palestinian terrorities were still under the control of their respective Arab rulers(Gaza to Egypt,West bank to Jordan and Golan Heights to Syria).Imagine these nations deciding ,perhaps on ethnic or just nationlist ideas(not too dissimiliar from Saddam`s),to enact a policy of discrimination similiar to Israel`s.
Would it gain the same level of outcry and rage from the Muslim and International world as if a non Muslim country such as Israel did it ?I would suspect not.I think it would be more like the Western Sahara conflict,where the Moroccon A state acting as a occupying force against its fellow muslims inhabitants,and it has little international attention.
To summarise ,are we muslims upset at the occupation of Israel because its wrong,or because its being done by Jews ?Ill end with an analogy to sum up this up,
Muslims don`t have a problem with the owner beating the dog,but with who is doing the beating.
Leave your thoughts on this please
.
What Im going to propose is controversial.
The basis of my argument is that most muslims and Arabs only care about the plight of the Palestinians because its the Israelis doing the oppressing and if it was a muslim state doing it instead,their plight wouldnt get as much recognition.
Before I begin,lets take a look at some real life examples.
Look at the Darfur conflict.The mainly Arab Sudanese government has long practiced a policy that can only be described as "Arab apartheid"agaisnt blacks,including their so called "fellow muslims"whose only crime happens to be that they are black.Where was the outcry from the muslim world ?One say the black Darfurians are the wrong kind of muslims.
http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/commentators/ed-husain-where-is-the-muslim-anger-over-darfur-1769962.html
Look at the case of etnic minorities during Saddam`s Rule .Saddam discriminated against Shias and Kurds and committed a campaign of genocide against the Kurds.He used poison gas agaisnt Kurdish civilians at Halabja.Condemnation from Arab states ?Zero.Saddam didnt even try to cover what he did.Why ?No one ,not the muslim world or the West ,would do anything about it .
Saudi Arabia`s discrimination against its Shia minority ?Apart from Iran,very few muslim countries and barely any Arab ones have condemned Saudi Arabia.Even when the hajj disaster happened,not even the first ,most muslim countries didnt say anything,even though Saudi incompetency was at blame.
And there are countless other cases.So down to the thought experiment.
Imagine the six day war never happened and the Palestinian terrorities were still under the control of their respective Arab rulers(Gaza to Egypt,West bank to Jordan and Golan Heights to Syria).Imagine these nations deciding ,perhaps on ethnic or just nationlist ideas(not too dissimiliar from Saddam`s),to enact a policy of discrimination similiar to Israel`s.
Would it gain the same level of outcry and rage from the Muslim and International world as if a non Muslim country such as Israel did it ?I would suspect not.I think it would be more like the Western Sahara conflict,where the Moroccon A state acting as a occupying force against its fellow muslims inhabitants,and it has little international attention.
To summarise ,are we muslims upset at the occupation of Israel because its wrong,or because its being done by Jews ?Ill end with an analogy to sum up this up,
Muslims don`t have a problem with the owner beating the dog,but with who is doing the beating.
Leave your thoughts on this please
.Scroll to see replies
Really interesting, wish there were responses from Muslims
It is an interesting question. The fact is that not all Palestinians even receive the same amount of support. We hear about the Palestinians in Israel, but rarely the Palestinians in Lebanon. To borrow from an old post of mine:
The fact is that most criticisms are aimed at Israel and never countries like Lebanon. I rarely hear anyone make a case for the rights of Palestinians in Lebanon who are banned from a plethora of careers, they receive constant discrimination, the law prohibits them from owning a property, they are deprived of access to health care and Palestinians trying to escape Syria have been prevented from crossing the border.
Some have gone as far as to compare the treatment of Palestinians in Lebanon as similar to the apartheid system practised in South Africa.
The fact is that most criticisms are aimed at Israel and never countries like Lebanon. I rarely hear anyone make a case for the rights of Palestinians in Lebanon who are banned from a plethora of careers, they receive constant discrimination, the law prohibits them from owning a property, they are deprived of access to health care and Palestinians trying to escape Syria have been prevented from crossing the border.
Some have gone as far as to compare the treatment of Palestinians in Lebanon as similar to the apartheid system practised in South Africa.
(edited 8 years ago)
Original post by Kadak
To summarise ,are we muslims upset at the occupation of Israel because its wrong,or because its being done by Jews ?Ill end with an analogy to sum up this up,
Muslims don`t have a problem with the owner beating the dog,but with who is doing the beating.
Leave your thoughts on this please.
To summarise ,are we muslims upset at the occupation of Israel because its wrong,or because its being done by Jews ?Ill end with an analogy to sum up this up,
Muslims don`t have a problem with the owner beating the dog,but with who is doing the beating.
Leave your thoughts on this please
.I'm pretty sure everyone's problem is with 'the owner beating the dog'...
I wasn't expecting such an intelligent proposition. I too would be very interested in some of the Muslim opinions on this.
Posted from TSR Mobile
Posted from TSR Mobile
Perhaps share the thread link on isoc?
Do you want me to move this to a better section? Might get more of a response as it's genuinely interesting.
Original post by MrDystopia
Do you want me to move this to a better section? Might get more of a response as it's genuinely interesting.
Posted from TSR Mobile
Yes please
.
This is a good point to be honest. Very thought provoking.
Some Muslims asked a group of others why not much thought was given to the Muslims in Central African Republic? They put it down to race / cultural differences despite having the same religions.
Same deal with the Darfuris who are Muslim - where's the outcry?
Some Muslims asked a group of others why not much thought was given to the Muslims in Central African Republic? They put it down to race / cultural differences despite having the same religions.
Same deal with the Darfuris who are Muslim - where's the outcry?
Original post by Kadak
Which section do you want it in?
Original post by MrDystopia
Which section do you want it in?
Posted from TSR Mobile
Any will do,I don't mind
.Muslim here..
It's interesting what you've said, and I see where you're coming from, but I think a similar thing could be applied to western nations. How many front page articles will you read about the plight of sweatshop workers in Pakistan, compared to a US/UK fatality at war in Afghanistan? I think it's more an issue of "who's doing the writing/speaking up".
I don't really have much of an opinion as I dislike getting involved in politics lol
EDIT: I probably didn't address all of the points either, but my point is that I think you will see outcry SOMEwhere. It's just that somewhere will differ by case
It's interesting what you've said, and I see where you're coming from, but I think a similar thing could be applied to western nations. How many front page articles will you read about the plight of sweatshop workers in Pakistan, compared to a US/UK fatality at war in Afghanistan? I think it's more an issue of "who's doing the writing/speaking up".
I don't really have much of an opinion as I dislike getting involved in politics lol
EDIT: I probably didn't address all of the points either, but my point is that I think you will see outcry SOMEwhere. It's just that somewhere will differ by case
(edited 8 years ago)
Original post by Kadak
Stuck it in the News/Current Affairs given this conflict always receives media attention and you'll garner a better debate than Chat.
What you've said is very interesting. And I do agree with much of what you said (as a Muslim ) Sometimes I feel the Israel-Palestine conflict is blown out of proportion, for example I don't hear many Muslims talk about the humanitarian crisis that is the Syrian civil war, in which many innocent people have suffered at the hands of a dictator from the same religion. That to me is very upsetting. Also what an above poster has said about Palestinian refugees in Lebanon, because it is not oppression subjected by the Israelis perhaps it is not as debated about as much within the Muslim community.
Also what you said about us Muslims being upset about the occupation because it is caused by the Jews, I cannot speak for all Muslims but I know that for many that is not true. I respect the religion of Judaism equally and I know many other Muslims do and would like to see peace and harmony between the two religions.
) Sometimes I feel the Israel-Palestine conflict is blown out of proportion, for example I don't hear many Muslims talk about the humanitarian crisis that is the Syrian civil war, in which many innocent people have suffered at the hands of a dictator from the same religion. That to me is very upsetting. Also what an above poster has said about Palestinian refugees in Lebanon, because it is not oppression subjected by the Israelis perhaps it is not as debated about as much within the Muslim community. Also what you said about us Muslims being upset about the occupation because it is caused by the Jews, I cannot speak for all Muslims but I know that for many that is not true. I respect the religion of Judaism equally and I know many other Muslims do and would like to see peace and harmony between the two religions.
Original post by _ariane29
What you've said is very interesting. And I do agree with much of what you said (as a Muslim ) Sometimes I feel the Israel-Palestine conflict is blown out of proportion, for example I don't hear many Muslims talk about the humanitarian crisis that is the Syrian civil war, in which many innocent people have suffered at the hands of a dictator from the same religion. That to me is very upsetting. Also what an above poster has said about Palestinian refugees in Lebanon, because it is not oppression subjected by the Israelis perhaps it is not as debated about as much within the Muslim community.
Also what you said about us Muslims being upset about the occupation because it is caused by the Jews, I cannot speak for all Muslims but I know that for many that is not true. I respect the religion of Judaism equally and I know many other Muslims do and would like to see peace and harmony between the two religions.
) Sometimes I feel the Israel-Palestine conflict is blown out of proportion, for example I don't hear many Muslims talk about the humanitarian crisis that is the Syrian civil war, in which many innocent people have suffered at the hands of a dictator from the same religion. That to me is very upsetting. Also what an above poster has said about Palestinian refugees in Lebanon, because it is not oppression subjected by the Israelis perhaps it is not as debated about as much within the Muslim community. Also what you said about us Muslims being upset about the occupation because it is caused by the Jews, I cannot speak for all Muslims but I know that for many that is not true. I respect the religion of Judaism equally and I know many other Muslims do and would like to see peace and harmony between the two religions.
I agree with most of what you said except the one in bold. Human lives DO matter, but it's not the Israel-Palestine that's blown out of proportion. Rather there are MANY other issues which have not garnered the attention of the Muslims they deserve. (in my opinion)
I think many other issues deserve the attention Israel-Palestine gets
Original post by Student403
I agree with most of what you said except the one in bold. Human lives DO matter, but it's not the Israel-Palestine that's blown out of proportion. Rather there are MANY other issues which have not garnered the attention of the Muslims they deserve. (in my opinion)
I think many other issues deserve the attention Israel-Palestine gets
I think many other issues deserve the attention Israel-Palestine gets
I hope you didn't misinterpret what I meant, I wasn't discounting the lives of the Palestinians neither was I saying any other affair was not worthy of the same attention. You are probably correct in saying there are many other issues that deserve to be debated, I really am not into politics at all so I wouldn't know >.< All human life is worth the same amount to me whether it concerns the Israel-Palestine conflict or anything else.
I think part of it is the amount of coverage it gets. If something happens in Palestine and Israel it's on the news and passed around social media quicker. So the average Muslim notices that more often.
Original post by _ariane29
I hope you didn't misinterpret what I meant, I wasn't discounting the lives of the Palestinians neither was I saying any other affair was not worthy of the same attention. You are probably correct in saying there are many other issues that deserve to be debated, I really am not into politics at all so I wouldn't know >.< All human life is worth the same amount to me whether it concerns the Israel-Palestine conflict or anything else.
I hope I didn't misinterpret, because I agreed with almost everything! And I don't doubt that you care about human lives. I just wasn't sure of the highlighted sentence in bold was all.
I'm really not in to politics either
Muslim here! I think I can give a few thoughts...
First off I'd like to address this statement. It's incorrect and a huge generalisation. Many have a problem with BOTH, and we DO care about the "dog". To be honest I think your statement could apply to a lot of groups, e.g. (as far as I'm aware, please do not take offence if you are one) feminists who would attack the "person doing the beating" more if it were a man.
Ok anyway, you are saying that most muslims and Arabs only care about the plight of the Palestinians because its the Israelis doing the oppressing. I would agree that, unfortunately this is true.
1. Most Arabs care simply because it is an Arab country that is being attacked. Arab culture isn't individualistic and so as a whole they tend to support each other (possibly with the exception of the UAE, who don't really care for anyone beyond that apparently). If it were another Muslim country like Pakistan or Indonesia, I doubt as many Arabs would care.
2. Similar to the initial point but with Muslims. They do not tend to be individualistic, you can often see that religion, particularly in Islam, there is a strong kinship between everyone that just forms when you are part of the religion. I'd like to point out though, that Muslims do still care about the plight of other countries, but this may not be shown as much as you'd think. For example, Pakistan was one of the first countries to help out Nepal (which is not a Muslim country) after its earthquake and continued to give as much aid as possible when other countries joined in, but this was not well recognised.
3. There is significant history and tension between Israelis and Arabs and Muslims, most hate the other even though they might of never even met and actual person from the opposing side. I think this is the main factor. If instead of Israel it were Germany or India, there perhaps would not be as much outcry.
4. There has been ongoing wars and fights between Muslim countries themselves for years and years and years, with ethnic groups and religious groups. For example, the Shias and Sunnis, the Hazaras and Pashtuns, the Persians and Arabs. Stuff like that has been dated centuries back and, unfortunately, I guess some people just leave them to it as they may not be directly linked to that situation (e.g. they may not be Persian, they may not be Sunni OR Shia), or they may not be as sensitive to the issue and so on. Fights between ethnic minorities don't often receive nearly as much help as you would of seen with the Palestinian conflict.
What I'd like to remind you all though, that what the Israelis did to the Palestinians was terrible in any context. Another reason for the uproar was the mass of attacks and violence that occurred during a holy month (Ramadan). The Palestinians were already a poor country and a lot had been taken away from them prior the sudden attacks, and what happened to them was inhumane, brutal and uncalled for.
Original post by Kadak
Muslims don`t have a problem with the owner beating the dog,but with who is doing the beating.
Leave your thoughts on this please.
Muslims don`t have a problem with the owner beating the dog,but with who is doing the beating.
Leave your thoughts on this please
.Ok anyway, you are saying that most muslims and Arabs only care about the plight of the Palestinians because its the Israelis doing the oppressing. I would agree that, unfortunately this is true.
1. Most Arabs care simply because it is an Arab country that is being attacked. Arab culture isn't individualistic and so as a whole they tend to support each other (possibly with the exception of the UAE, who don't really care for anyone beyond that apparently). If it were another Muslim country like Pakistan or Indonesia, I doubt as many Arabs would care.
2. Similar to the initial point but with Muslims. They do not tend to be individualistic, you can often see that religion, particularly in Islam, there is a strong kinship between everyone that just forms when you are part of the religion. I'd like to point out though, that Muslims do still care about the plight of other countries, but this may not be shown as much as you'd think. For example, Pakistan was one of the first countries to help out Nepal (which is not a Muslim country) after its earthquake and continued to give as much aid as possible when other countries joined in, but this was not well recognised.
3. There is significant history and tension between Israelis and Arabs and Muslims, most hate the other even though they might of never even met and actual person from the opposing side. I think this is the main factor. If instead of Israel it were Germany or India, there perhaps would not be as much outcry.
4. There has been ongoing wars and fights between Muslim countries themselves for years and years and years, with ethnic groups and religious groups. For example, the Shias and Sunnis, the Hazaras and Pashtuns, the Persians and Arabs. Stuff like that has been dated centuries back and, unfortunately, I guess some people just leave them to it as they may not be directly linked to that situation (e.g. they may not be Persian, they may not be Sunni OR Shia), or they may not be as sensitive to the issue and so on. Fights between ethnic minorities don't often receive nearly as much help as you would of seen with the Palestinian conflict.
What I'd like to remind you all though, that what the Israelis did to the Palestinians was terrible in any context. Another reason for the uproar was the mass of attacks and violence that occurred during a holy month (Ramadan). The Palestinians were already a poor country and a lot had been taken away from them prior the sudden attacks, and what happened to them was inhumane, brutal and uncalled for.
(edited 8 years ago)
Original post by Lord Samosa
I think part of it is the amount of coverage it gets. If something happens in Palestine and Israel it's on the news and passed around social media quicker. So the average Muslim notices that more often.
This is a good point I didn't think of! You don't know nearly as much about stuff going on with Kurds, and ethnic minorities in Afghanistan or something, it's not on the news nearly as much as something like the P and I conflict.
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