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Louise, you are going to freaking Cambridge!! What do you mean by saying

Louise_1988

I'm still going to a very good university, even if it's not in the US

Cambridge is right up there, along with HYPMS man!

I know you're fond of US education and I completely understand, as the quality of US higher education really is second to none in the world. But what I find ironic/confusing about the US system is that their admission procedure is a complete mess. IMO, their admission system stresses university-school relationship, parents earning power/fame, and good application marketing/boasting over applicants' innate intelligence. This US admission game has led to teenagers racking hundreds of hours of volunteer work/(or other seemingly meaningful activity) not because they enjoy the work, but simply for the sake of improving their odds of getting into top US unis.

Oxbridge, though not perfect, does a better job in identifying real academic talents.

Reply 41

coosee

hi Lareina, it's nice to know you are from China but what part? i'm from Shandong :smile:

Reply 42

ryan2288

Louise_1988

well yer, i know they do put a lot of waffle on the websites...

it is interesting to note though, that the admit rate to harvard from UK students in pretty much identical to the applicant pool as a whole, so they must see some value in taking students from over here.

What people have to realize when discussing admissions into the U.S ivies is that a lot of it is luck, but even a larger portion is through connections. The reason schools have the uncanny ability to get students consistently admitted to university x is because the university has a history with the school and is more likely to know what to expect from students at that university. There are private high schools in this country that get rich kids into Ivies with inferior stats and extracurriculars than high performing valedictorians with perfect SAT scores from public schools. It's not fair, but its how ivies pay the bills in the long run.

If your school doesn't have a reputation then you must exhibit your individualism that much more. The difference between applying to Yale and Cambridge lies not only in the focus on extra-curriculars, but certainly also in the drastic difference in approaching the personal statement. In the US it pays to be "quirky" or to come from some sort of "inspirational(another word for ******ed up) background".

Reply 43

shady lane

ryan2288

That doesn't really make sense. Why would taking more private school kids mean more money for the university? Just because you can afford private school doesn't mean you can afford $40K/year university tuition, and that's not including kids on scholarship to private schools. Plus, long-term alumni giving brings more revenue to universities than tuition does, and it's impossible to tell if a privately-educated person will give more to the university over their lifetime than anyone else.

Reply 44

ryan2288

shady lane

Precisely, long term alumni brings in revenue. The reason why many wealthy kids from prestigious private high schools are accepted is because the possibility of their parents(or themselves) donating is much higher than if they accepted a kid that needed need based aid. Even if you don't buy the financial incentive, it serves the University well to connect themselves with sons and daughters of the wealthy and connected in this country -- I think this is common sense.

The only other group that prestigious U.S colleges go out of their way to admit are people on the other end of the spectrum - the poor and underrepresented(I personally think this is just for PR, but you be the judge). In the long run the true people that suffer in terms of college admissions and financial aid in the US are kids from the middle class. Even if they do extraordinarily well, they are still unlikely to be admitted to a top 5 school and even if they get in, they will have a tough time affording it(EFC is certainly not an accurate component of determining need).

If you are going to tell me that Ivies admit strictly on merit or even essay writing ability then I think thats a joke.

Reply 45

shady lane

I'm not saying that. But I think you would need to actually see some statistics on giving before you make claims. I know at my undergrad university, the number 1 factor in determining how much people give as alumni is not their family income. It's whether or not they liked their freshman dorm. I know this for a fact: I had friends working in the alumni relations office.

I happen to have gone to a private school, with kids whose parents were giving money for years before they applied, and they still got rejected. In fact, I got into my university and a kid who was rejected from my school was the son of the REGIONAL ALUMNI director for the New York Tri-State area. So once again, give universities credit: they are primarily academic institutions.

Reply 46

Chengora

What people have to realize when discussing admissions into the U.S ivies is that a lot of it is luck, but even a larger portion is through connections.

Well, it's certainly deeper than that, although you're right that connections are an important factor. This article is a really interesting look into the evolution of the U.S. college admissions process:

http://www.newyorker.com/archive/2005/10/10/051010crat_atlarge

Now the point that the individual makes is interesting: is it better to have an application that attempts to capture a more holistic picture of the individual (and of course impels many high school students to incredible feats of time management), or should admissions be based purely on the "intellectual merit" of the individual? I'll note that while many East Asian education systems now work off some version of the mass standardized test, there is incredible interest in changing that system in order to capture/foster the innovative character of students that many educators feel is the real success story of the U.S. education system.

In any event, I don't want to get too into the debate here, but I will say that legacy certainly does matter in admissions, as well as lack of financial need (or in other words, your family's rich). There's actually an interesting opinion piece in the latest issue of the Atlantic on this. Now, I've certainly known the kids of alumni who haven't gotten in, and this, I think, is a sign of strength in the U.S. system. But alumni legacy is at least as strong a factor as race or need in many universities. I don't think it's purely because of the financial issue, but I certainly couldn't dismiss it outright.

And then there's this financial argument that's going on. Don't forget, the main target of college donation appeals is NOT the student. They occupy an important place, but only after a couple years have gone by and they've established themselves. It's their parents that are the targets, and if you can demonstrate an ability to pay through the nose for education (i.e. you sent your kids to private school), that's a good indication that you have money to burn on donations, even moreso for rich alumni with kids who go to the same school.

Now, universities certainly do not make their calculations solely on the cynical perspective that ryan228 adopts. That goes much too far. But, rather than play towards the middle, I will say that admissions decisions are in some ways the product of intra-college department processes. It's notable that admissions, financial development, and alumni relations are separate departments in most universities, and in that regard, you're hearing from different groups with different interests at different times. And of course, they all do talk to each other to an extent, so the institutional advocates of legacy and money definitely do have some influence on the admissions process.

But I think this is all underwritten by the fact that the U.S. has such a vibrant higher educational system. "Rejection" doesn't mean "you're not smart enough to get in here", like it often does in East Asia. You've got choices (and so do the universities), so just keep that in mind and recognize that the admissions process is much more complicated and far less monolithic than is often portrayed.