Do junior doctors just care about the money?
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Original post by Betelgeuse-
Lazy Brits no work ethic. Get rid of the lot and bring in some 2nd and 3rd world rice pickers to replace them! They already know what a 125 hour week is
You'll find A LOT of our doctors and nurses are from overseas.
"2nd and 3rd" world is now considerably richer than Britain
Brits will eventually face 125 hour work weeks or much poorer wages than they get now if productivity does not improve.
Pip pip.
Original post by Awesome Genius
@welcometoib @Princepieman @Anonynmous
What do you think about this?
This person is saying that its easier to get into IB (anywhere) than MBB consulting.
I think thats total nonsense.
What do you think about this?
This person is saying that its easier to get into IB (anywhere) than MBB consulting.
I think thats total nonsense.
I'm not one of them and I don't think that's what the poster you quoted was saying, but it's indeed easier to get into IB anywhere. There are some very ****ty ibanks with ****ty pay.
Original post by Little Toy Gun
I'm not one of them and I don't think that's what the poster you quoted was saying, but it's indeed easier to get into IB anywhere. There are some very ****ty ibanks with ****ty pay.
Apart from GS and MS, Id say MBB is harder to get into.
No way to prove that. Not speaking from experience. Just my feeling from talking to people.
Original post by Awesome Genius
@welcometoib @Princepieman @Anonynmous
What do you think about this?
This person is saying that its easier to get into IB (anywhere) than MBB consulting.
I think thats total nonsense.
With regard to the rest of your post, 16 - nothing set in stone & basically yeh I'm just repeating myself.
What do you think about this?
This person is saying that its easier to get into IB (anywhere) than MBB consulting.
I think thats total nonsense.
With regard to the rest of your post, 16 - nothing set in stone & basically yeh I'm just repeating myself.
It is easier to get into IB (any firm) than MBB.
I agree to the notion that consulting (tier 2 & below) is seen as a backup to IB, but that's as far as i can go tbh.
MBB >>> Any IB personally (though with a hypothetical GS/MS/JPM offer i would have to think very hard)
Original post by Little Toy Gun
So it all comes down to you personally feeling that doctors are overpaid.
No, I think they are comfortably paid not overpaid.
Original post by Little Toy Gun
I arrived at that conclusion because you're saying doctors who are motivated by the intrinsic value of their job are better doctors.
Yes, that seems logical.
Original post by Little Toy Gun
This means doctors who work for less money will be better doctors because they're more likely to be motivated by the value of the work, not money.
You reduced it to absurdity - people can't work full-time for free as it's physically impossible, hence your conclusion is based in fallacy. More to the point, the doctors won't "work for less money" since the NHS has standardised salaries but rather money won't drive nor demotivate them.
Original post by Little Toy Gun
Who's to decide what's comfortable and what's not comfortable enough?
Jeremy Hunt/the government/the taxpayer!
Original post by Little Toy Gun
Should all doctors be earning just a livable wage, then?
Well that's roughly what £40k is for a doctor's hours.
Original post by Natalierm2707
you need to look at the logistics of the pay scale! you are now being paid the same for more hours, as the standard hours have increased from 7am to 7pm monday to friday previously to now 7am -10pm monday to saturday...
so if you were a junior doctor work 48 hours a week, (what I am about to say is just random figures, i have no idea about actual pay values so its just for purpose)
you get paid £20 an hour for a standard hour and £30 an hour for a non standard hour.
a junior doctor works
mon: 9am - 7pm (10 hours)
tue: 9pm - 7am (10 hours)
thur: 12pm - 9pm (9 hours)
fri: 4am - 1pm (9 hours)
sat: 8am - 6pm (10 hours)
in the old contract that would pay:
25 non standard hours at £30 + 23 standard hours at £20 = £1210
in the new contract that would pay:
12 non standard hours at £30 + 36 standard hours at £20 = £1080
can you now see the difference
so if you were a junior doctor work 48 hours a week, (what I am about to say is just random figures, i have no idea about actual pay values so its just for purpose)
you get paid £20 an hour for a standard hour and £30 an hour for a non standard hour.
a junior doctor works
mon: 9am - 7pm (10 hours)
tue: 9pm - 7am (10 hours)
thur: 12pm - 9pm (9 hours)
fri: 4am - 1pm (9 hours)
sat: 8am - 6pm (10 hours)
in the old contract that would pay:
25 non standard hours at £30 + 23 standard hours at £20 = £1210
in the new contract that would pay:
12 non standard hours at £30 + 36 standard hours at £20 = £1080
can you now see the difference
You've missed the 11% increase in base salary to make up for the difference which obviously won't work with your figures anyway, as they are just hypothetical.
Original post by Awesome Genius
@welcometoib @Princepieman @Anonynmous
What do you think about this?
This person is saying that its easier to get into IB (anywhere) than MBB consulting.
I think thats total nonsense.
With regard to the rest of your post, 16 - nothing set in stone & basically yeh I'm just repeating myself.
What do you think about this?
This person is saying that its easier to get into IB (anywhere) than MBB consulting.
I think thats total nonsense.
With regard to the rest of your post, 16 - nothing set in stone & basically yeh I'm just repeating myself.
If I'm reading it right, he's saying it's easier to get into consulting? I'd say that's just false.
MBB consulting is 500000x harder to break into post-undergrad than banking. IBs usually hire ~100-150 front office analysts a year per bulge bracket bank, MBB usually recruit ~10-30 consulting analysts. I.e., you're literally 5-15x more likely to land an FO role at a BB than you would a consulrong job at an MBB.
To put it into context, MBB focuses heavily on Oxbridge for their post-undergrad roles. When you think of how many Oxbridge people are rejected, and how many people from the other traditional 'target' universities are rejected, then you add the EU applicants - the number becomes immense. Whereas, with IB, roles are spread across multiple BBs and elite boutiques - the shear number of seats available vs top tier consulting cannot be compared.
I haven't even mentioned the case interview vs IB technical interview distinction, the former being much more difficult to crack.
With regards to doctors breaking in, I feel they can get into either field if they tried. IBs like to hire people with industry knowledge/exposure into their coverage groups (i.e. Healthcare for a doctor), where they can directly apply their expertise. Consulting firms love doing this too. They poach smart doctors, PhD students etc, with a deep understanding of particular topics/industries.
Original post by macromicro
No, I think they are comfortably paid not overpaid.
So why change their contracts if you think they are not currently overpaid?
Original post by macromicro
You reduced it to absurdity - people can't work full-time for free as it's physically impossible, hence your conclusion is based in fallacy.
No, your argument was based on fallacy. It's your words not mine. It's your fault to not qualify it.
Original post by macromicro
More to the point, the doctors won't "work for less money" since the NHS has standardised salaries but rather money won't drive nor demotivate them.
Yes, because contracts, systems, and conditions will and can never ever be changed.
Original post by macromicro
Jeremy Hunt/the government/the taxpayer!
Classic 'my personal view represents the view of everyone in the general public'.
Original post by macromicro
You don't get to choose. My point was that money shouldn't be the drive to work unsocial hours - your passion for the job should be. When you pursue a career in medicine, you know that the NHS operates under a 24/7/365 system, so it seems illogical to me that when you finally become a doctor, you are only motivated by money to work unsocial hours and suddenly all that drive and enthusiasm which got you into medical school and out the other side have disappeared in favour of focusing on how much money you are getting out of it.
I think the problem with this statement is, that yes, you can argue that junior doctors should be motivated by their drive to care for patients rather than the money but realistically, just how long can you stay motivated if you are working 7am-10pm every weekday and now Saturdays as well. Maybe at first a foundation year doctor may be very enthusiastic about his/her work but by the end of the first few months they just won't seem to have the same sense of motivation.
Looking at this from a realistic viewpoint, they are now working longer for around the same wage, banding has been lifted and there is no longer regulations over unsociable hours. This would be negatively impacting especially if the doctor has a family, or would like to start a family as now they find that they spend even less time with their family but also, working longer hours without it being any benefit to them.
So, whilst you can say that their views and motivation towards the career should be for the caring of the patient, at the end of the day, you've got to remember that they themselves are humans too with families and private lives outside work. It wouldn't really be fair on them to turn around and say that they have to work longer hours whilst being offered the same pay.
From what I have read, junior doctors earn absolutely peanuts. I won't say I support their strike but I am sympathetic to their cause.
In their first year of postgraduate foundation training they earn a basic of around £22,636. That's for a basic 40 hr week. If they work 48 weeks a year that's £11.78/hr. I mean, seriously, it's no wonder so many of them get trained in the UK and emigrate to Australia or the US. It's a joke.
In their first year of postgraduate foundation training they earn a basic of around £22,636. That's for a basic 40 hr week. If they work 48 weeks a year that's £11.78/hr. I mean, seriously, it's no wonder so many of them get trained in the UK and emigrate to Australia or the US. It's a joke.
(edited 8 years ago)
Original post by Awesome Genius
@welcometoib @Princepieman @Anonynmous
What do you think about this?
This person is saying that its easier to get into IB (anywhere) than MBB consulting.
I think thats total nonsense.
What do you think about this?
This person is saying that its easier to get into IB (anywhere) than MBB consulting.
I think thats total nonsense.
Looking at Anonynmous' profile, he hasn't even finished his A-levels yet so I would be curious to know how he could even have an opinion on the matter (apologies if wrong).
I didn't say that it's easier to get into IB than MBB. In terms of City jobs, I don't think there is anything harder than FO at BB IB, even MBB. Personally if I was ever to return to the finance sector (never!), I would choose MBB as it's relatively easier work with endless exit opps and more security but if you're after prestige and short-term cash then you would be stupid to turn down FO BB.
Original post by Howard
In their first year of postgraduate foundation training they earn a basic of around £22,636. That's for a basic 40 hr week. If they work 48 weeks a year that's £11.78/hr. I mean, seriously, it's no wonder so many of them get trained in the UK and emigrate to Australia or the US. It's a joke.
That doesn't include the unsocial hours premium; they will earn closer to £30k in their first year, which is very good. You also have to remember that the vast majority (about 75%) of accepted applicants to medicine are from the top socio-economic backgrounds, i.e. they will have the bank of mum and dad.
Soldiers earn half of that and risk their lives and their socio-economic backgrounds are the exact reverse.
Original post by macromicro
No, I think they are comfortably paid not overpaid.
.
.
Well, underpaid.
" The one major country that appears to be paying its physicians too little is the
United Kingdom. "
2011 Cutler, David M., and Dan P. Ly. 2011, "The (Paper)Work of Medicine: Understanding International Medical Costs." Journal of Economic Perspectives, 25(2): 3-25.
(edited 8 years ago)
Original post by macromicro
That doesn't include the unsocial hours premium; they will earn closer to £30k in their first year, which is very good. You also have to remember that the vast majority (about 75%) of accepted applicants to medicine are from the top socio-economic backgrounds, i.e. they will have the bank of mum and dad.
Soldiers earn half of that and risk their lives and their socio-economic backgrounds are the exact reverse.
Soldiers earn half of that and risk their lives and their socio-economic backgrounds are the exact reverse.
Ok, but you don't need to do your A-Levels to be a Soldier.
You need to have a degree and then pay for a multitude of post-graduate courses to be a Doctor.
Hence, making the comparison inane.
Original post by Princepieman
If I'm reading it right, he's saying it's easier to get into consulting? I'd say that's just false.
MBB consulting is 500000x harder to break into post-undergrad than banking. IBs usually hire ~100-150 front office analysts a year per bulge bracket bank, MBB usually recruit ~10-30 consulting analysts. I.e., you're literally 5-15x more likely to land an FO role at a BB than you would a consulrong job at an MBB.
To put it into context, MBB focuses heavily on Oxbridge for their post-undergrad roles. When you think of how many Oxbridge people are rejected, and how many people from the other traditional 'target' universities are rejected, then you add the EU applicants - the number becomes immense. Whereas, with IB, roles are spread across multiple BBs and elite boutiques - the shear number of seats available vs top tier consulting cannot be compared.
I haven't even mentioned the case interview vs IB technical interview distinction, the former being much more difficult to crack.
With regards to doctors breaking in, I feel they can get into either field if they tried. IBs like to hire people with industry knowledge/exposure into their coverage groups (i.e. Healthcare for a doctor), where they can directly apply their expertise. Consulting firms love doing this too. They poach smart doctors, PhD students etc, with a deep understanding of particular topics/industries.
MBB consulting is 500000x harder to break into post-undergrad than banking. IBs usually hire ~100-150 front office analysts a year per bulge bracket bank, MBB usually recruit ~10-30 consulting analysts. I.e., you're literally 5-15x more likely to land an FO role at a BB than you would a consulrong job at an MBB.
To put it into context, MBB focuses heavily on Oxbridge for their post-undergrad roles. When you think of how many Oxbridge people are rejected, and how many people from the other traditional 'target' universities are rejected, then you add the EU applicants - the number becomes immense. Whereas, with IB, roles are spread across multiple BBs and elite boutiques - the shear number of seats available vs top tier consulting cannot be compared.
I haven't even mentioned the case interview vs IB technical interview distinction, the former being much more difficult to crack.
With regards to doctors breaking in, I feel they can get into either field if they tried. IBs like to hire people with industry knowledge/exposure into their coverage groups (i.e. Healthcare for a doctor), where they can directly apply their expertise. Consulting firms love doing this too. They poach smart doctors, PhD students etc, with a deep understanding of particular topics/industries.
Another A-level student who thinks he's a GS Partner. Those figures really were a good laugh. You think an MBB hires 10 analysts per year?
Put simply, the acceptance rate for both BB IB and MBB is under 5%. The specific numbers are negligible and which is lower is irrelevant when you get down to that level of competition. All that matters at that point is preference.
Original post by Little Toy Gun
So why change their contracts if you think they are not currently overpaid?
They are not cutting salaries, they are reallocating resources. The new contract is not a cost cutting measure, it's a push for a 7-day consistent NHS.
Original post by Little Toy Gun
No, your argument was based on fallacy. It's your words not mine. It's your fault to not qualify it.
It was a simple and logical claim which you exaggerated via assumption to create a new claim which was impossible and false. But regardless the point is moot.
Original post by Little Toy Gun
Yes, because contracts, systems, and conditions will and can never ever be changed.
They will still have standardised salaries unless the NHS dissolves and we go private.
Original post by Little Toy Gun
Classic 'my personal view represents the view of everyone in the general public'.
Eh? You asked me who decides and I answered.
Original post by macromicro
That doesn't include the unsocial hours premium; they will earn closer to £30k in their first year, which is very good. You also have to remember that the vast majority (about 75%) of accepted applicants to medicine are from the top socio-economic backgrounds, i.e. they will have the bank of mum and dad.
Soldiers earn half of that and risk their lives and their socio-economic backgrounds are the exact reverse.
Soldiers earn half of that and risk their lives and their socio-economic backgrounds are the exact reverse.
Fair comment. But forgetting that soldiers risk their lives while doctors save people's lives, and soldiers come from less comfortable backgrounds than doctors (Ruperts aside) it still seems very low. (Especially on a supply/demand basis - for every 1 person that can be a doctor there are probably 200 that can be a soldier)
Now, I know that with unsocial hours banding they earn more but if you just stick to the basic salary you can't ignore the fact that £11.78/hr is pitiful. Even at $30,000 (and lets assume that's also for 40 hours but includes for unsocial hours) it's still only £15.26/hr - that's not even a bricklayers rate. They're definitely not in it for the money.
Original post by DorianGrayism
Ok, but you don't need to do your A-Levels to be a Soldier.
You need to have a degree and then pay for a multitude of post-graduate courses to be a Doctor.
Hence, making the comparison inane.
You need to have a degree and then pay for a multitude of post-graduate courses to be a Doctor.
Hence, making the comparison inane.
A-levels are free and not life-threatening...
Comparisons don't have to be directly related to be valid, i.e. you think greater education/training should attract more money which I agree with but so should risking your life, working away from home for most of the year, experiencing the most stress you can have in any job, etc. They are both public services funded by the taxpayers - one is almost exclusive to the middle/upper class and you're calling the comparison inane? It's extremely relevant to the debate.
Original post by DorianGrayism
Ok, but you don't need to do your A-Levels to be a Soldier.
You need to have a degree and then pay for a multitude of post-graduate courses to be a Doctor.
Hence, making the comparison inane.
You need to have a degree and then pay for a multitude of post-graduate courses to be a Doctor.
Hence, making the comparison inane.
Let's assume you do have to do your A levels and have a degree to be a soldier (as an officer) British Army starting salary for a 2nd Lt is $30,314 (2013); quite a bit more than a junior doctor starting at £22,636
Original post by cookiemonster15
realistically, just how long can you stay motivated if you are working 7am-10pm every weekday and now Saturdays as well.
But those aren't the hours you will work - you will work a shift within those times.
Original post by cookiemonster15
they are now working longer for around the same wage, banding has been lifted
Original post by cookiemonster15
It wouldn't really be fair on them to turn around and say that they have to work longer hours whilst being offered the same pay.
The average hours is going to be the same at 48 hours. The weekly maximum is being reduced from 90 to 72 hours.
How is that longer hours...?
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