Do junior doctors just care about the money?

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Let's assume you do have to do your A levels and have a degree to be a soldier (as an officer) British Army starting salary for a 2nd Lt is $30,314 (2013); quite a bit more than a junior doctor starting at £22,636

Again, you've forgotten the premium rate which will bring the doctor up to the same or more, not to mention you're comparing the lowest ranked doctor to an officer, i.e. less pay progression.

Reply 81

Howard

Original post by macromicro

Again, you've forgotten the premium rate which will bring the doctor up to the same or more, not to mention you're comparing the lowest ranked doctor to an officer, i.e. less pay progression.

I'm comparing the lowest ranked doctor to the lowest ranked officer. And army officers get premium rates too (you get more for being on active duty than you do sitting around at home)

Still, tell you want I'd do though...........

If I had my time again, I'd have studied medicine, spent a few years as a GP and then joined the army as a Major (they start at £96,262) at maybe 30 or 35. I'd then stay in the army and make Lt.Col or maybe even Col by 45 (probably on about £150k as an MD Col) before retiring at 50 on a nice big fat gold plated index linked pension while doing some consulting. Cushty.

Next life eh?

(edited 8 years ago)

Reply 82

username738914

Original post by macromicro

Another A-level student who thinks he's a GS Partner. Those figures really were a good laugh. You think an MBB hires 10 analysts per year?

Put simply, the acceptance rate for both BB IB and MBB is under 5%. The specific numbers are negligible and which is lower is irrelevant when you get down to that level of competition. All that matters at that point is preference.

LOL, do you not know what a 'range' is? The average BB analyst class for IBD (alone) ranges from 40-80 and there are 9 of those such BBs. You simply can't compare that to MBB/tier 2 strat houses who take in a fraction of that at the undergrad level, and state with conviction that the latter is easier to get into.

Wait, you're backtracking.. You literally just said earlier that consulting was a 'backup', and now you've said it 'doesn't matter'. Your point isn't really coming across bro. Anyway, I agree with your conclusion but definitely don't agree with your previous statement re:IB vs Consulting.

Reply 83

DorianGrayism

Original post by macromicro

A-levels are free and not life-threatening...

Comparisons don't have to be directly related to be valid, i.e. you think greater education/training should attract more money which I agree with but so should risking your life, working away from home for most of the year, experiencing the most stress you can have in any job, etc. They are both public services funded by the taxpayers - one is almost exclusive to the middle/upper class and you're calling the comparison inane? It's extremely relevant to the debate.

Yes, inane.

Again, if the latter was so difficult,then they wouldn't have basic GCSE's as a requirement.

The reality is that it is difficult to become a Doctor. It is not difficult to become a Soldier. That is why one is paid more than the other.

Whether you think they deserve to be paid more is irrelevant.

Reply 84

macromicro

Original post by Princepieman

Your range, figures and analysis were ridiculous. Look, 'bro', I can't argue with a teenager who has no degree or professional experience on a forum in a thread about the NHS. This is a moot point and a waste of our time.

Reply 85

macromicro

Original post by Howard

it still seems very low. (Especially on a supply/demand basis - for every 1 person that can be a doctor there are probably 200 that can be a soldier)

Anyone can be a doctor if they are born into the right family with the right upbringing. What do you mean by "can", anyway? The life of a solider is gruelling. Very few people can stomach it. If you mean that those 200 can build up the fitness and have the brain capacity to be a solider, yes, but that's very different to actually living your life as a solider as your career. Not many people have the character to do it. In terms of supply/demand, the UK military tends not to have enough applicants and medicine has too many.

Original post by Howard

Now, I know that with unsocial hours banding they earn more but if you just stick to the basic salary you can't ignore the fact that £11.78/hr is pitiful. Even at $30,000 (and lets assume that's also for 40 hours but includes for unsocial hours) it's still only £15.26/hr - that's not even a bricklayers rate. They're definitely not in it for the money.

It's actually much less than that as you're forgetting about income tax! I personally think it's adequate considering they are a first-year employee. That's very good for a first year graduate.

Reply 86

macromicro

Original post by DorianGrayism

Again, if the latter was so difficult,then they wouldn't have basic GCSE's as a requirement.

There are different types of difficulty. Again, you need to learn to compare things a little more creatively than simply via academic requirements!

Original post by DorianGrayism

The reality is that it is difficult to become a Doctor. It is not difficult to become a Soldier. That is why one is paid more than the other.

It's very difficult to become a soldier, just in a completely different way. The life after becoming a solider is far more difficult than any job imaginable.

Original post by DorianGrayism

Whether you think they deserve to be paid more is irrelevant.

No, actually, that's how debate, reform and policy-making works...

Reply 87

Howard

Original post by macromicro

It's actually much less than that as you're forgetting about income tax! I personally think it's adequate considering they are a first-year employee. That's very good for a first year graduate.

Indeed. I hadn't forgotten about tax and other stoppages. Anyway, rather them than me. I'd have to be a lot more altruistic than I am to want a career in medicine in the UK. It just doesn't pay enough.

Reply 88

DorianGrayism

Original post by macromicro

They are not cutting salaries, they are reallocating resources. The new contract is not a cost cutting measure, it's a push for a 7-day consistent NHS.
.

So they are going to cut cover during the week and make people work during the weekends?

The Tories better get around to telling all of the OTs, Physios, Radiographers, pharmacists and etc.

Oh wait, they won't because the 7 day NHS is a bull**** excuse to cut wages.

Reply 89

Awesome Genius

Original post by macromicro

Yeah but he does know a huge amount about the topic. And you're just changing your argument as you go along.

Little Toy Gun said the same thing. Anonynmous said the same thing. I assure you welcometoib will say the same thing.

Which firm did you even work for in consulting?

Reply 90

DorianGrayism

Original post by macromicro

It's very difficult to become a soldier, just in a completely different way. The life after becoming a solider is far more difficult than any job imaginable.
.

Again, whether you think it is difficult or not is irrelevant. The supply of soldiers exceeds the demand for them. Therefore, they don't need to be paid as much.

Reply 91

troubadour.

Original post by KimKallstrom

It you've got the academic and all round profile to become a doctor, you could become an investment banker and make more. With only 3 years of uni instead of 6 as well.....

So no.

Pedantry: Most medicine courses are five years long, unless you choose to take a year out to do another subject (intercalation). Even the six-year courses are just five-year courses where the intercalation is compulsory rather than optional.

:getmecoat:

Reply 92

asif007

I'm surprised there haven't been more junior doctors/medical students who have waded in on this thread already. I think it's insulting to suggest that "junior doctors just care about the money" when there are so many other aspects of this destructive contract that people overlook time and time again. Jeremy Hunt would have you believe that we're all money-grabbing and lazy, but his arguments are poorly informed and baseless. This is NOT about the money. Here's what we're angry about:

-Removal of the safeguards that prevent NHS trusts overworking doctors into dangerously long hours. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that tired, stressed and unappreciated doctors will make mistakes that can cost lives. Miscalculating drug doses, poor communication and slowed reflexes (all as a result of tiredness) can kill patients under the care of those tired doctors. HGV drivers and pilots have limits on the hours they work in order to prevent accidents - this **** wants to stop that for doctors. The safeguards are already very poorly implemented and doctors already work way over the EWTD legal working limit just to maintain safe staffing levels. Just imagine how long they could be working without breaks or without seeing their families if Hunt is successful.

-Removal of pay progression based on clinical experience. This penalises doctors who take time out for medical research or go on maternity leave. How dare this government insinuate that women should be paid less after taking time out to have children? That's active gender discrimination which I believe is illegal in the UK.

-Jeremy Hunt has been on a smear campaign against doctors. He quotes the "11,000 extra weekend deaths" statistic from a paper in the BMJ over and over again when that same paper also says that it would be "rash and misleading to assume that these weekend mortalities are entirely unavoidable". He's been using this to create media spin, propaganda and to try and deceive the public into thinking that junior doctors don't work weekends when EVERY SINGLE doctor in the UK already works weekends (Friday evening to Monday morning). It's an insult to suggest that they don't. He also misled Parliament with those same numbers which is a criminal offence carrying a 5-year jail sentence. There is plenty of evidence conducted by other journals which say that weekend mortalities are not due to shortage of junior doctor staffing, but because those admitted at the weekends are more ill with long-term conditions than those admitted during the week. But Hunt insists on using one paper which has been disproven countless times.

-Jeremy Hunt would have you believe that he's offering an 11% pay rise when in fact that amounts to a massive pay cut. Junior doctors receive a basic payment for working plain hours (i.e. 7am-7pm Monday to Friday). They also receive additional supplements for working night shifts, on-calls and weekends - this is called banding. For most junior doctors, banding contributes around 40% of their total income. What Jeremy Hunt is proposing is to scrap banding completely and offer a modest 11% rise on the basic payment - it doesn't take a genius to figure out that this rise is offset by the loss of banding. Hunt also wants to increase the number of hours of plain time which means he wants doctors to work more hours for less money. Junior doctors working the most antisocial hours (i.e. in A&E, anaesthetics, ICU) will take the biggest pay cut as a result.

(edited 8 years ago)

Reply 93

VV Cephei A

Silly suggestion. Junior doctor salary is already questionably low for the work they provide. I say this as a soon to be qualified dentist who will, in the early years at least, make a considerable amount more than doctors while working considerably less hours. Our docs deserve more.

Reply 94

welcometoib

Original post by Awesome Genius

@welcometoib @Princepieman @Anonynmous

What do you think about this?

This person is saying that its easier to get into IB (anywhere) than MBB consulting.

I think thats total nonsense.

With regard to the rest of your post, 16 - nothing set in stone & basically yeh I'm just repeating myself.

yeah he is talking out his ass, ask him where he was a consultant. Also, doctors are wayyyyyyy underpaid.

Reply 95

El Salvador

Original post by macromicro

They are not cutting salaries, they are reallocating resources. The new contract is not a cost cutting measure, it's a push for a 7-day consistent NHS.

So what's your issue? Whether they care about money shouldn't matter in this case.

Original post by macromicro

It was a simple and logical claim which you exaggerated via assumption to create a new claim which was impossible and false. But regardless the point is moot.

By 'simple and logical' you mean 'reductive and ignorant'.

Original post by macromicro

Eh? You asked me who decides and I answered.

Then where's the evidence saying that 'the taxpayer' wants doctors to be of this wage but not another?

And BTW, no. The taxpayer and the Secretary do not decide the salary - the market does. We live in a capitalist, not socialist society. If you want a society where the government decides on the wages of people, go to North Korea.

Reply 96

doodle_333

I don't see what the big problem is either? I can see why losing money for the change to unsociable hours would be frustrating when you're used to things being a certain way but most people working jobs in which it is normal to work until 10 or later aren't paid extra for it (and most of them earn much less!).

Reply 97

macromicro

Original post by DorianGrayism

Again, whether you think it is difficult or not is irrelevant. The supply of soldiers exceeds the demand for them. Therefore, they don't need to be paid as much.

No... the demand exceeds the supply.

And it's the reasons for the differing supplies and demands of different careers which make up this debate, i.e. that which you think is "irrelevant".

Reply 98

welcometoib

Original post by macromicro

Looking at Anonynmous' profile, he hasn't even finished his A-levels yet so I would be curious to know how he could even have an opinion on the matter (apologies if wrong).

I didn't say that it's easier to get into IB than MBB. In terms of City jobs, I don't think there is anything harder than FO at BB IB, even MBB. Personally if I was ever to return to the finance sector (never!), I would choose MBB as it's relatively easier work with endless exit opps and more security but if you're after prestige and short-term cash then you would be stupid to turn down FO BB.

ibd is souless and depressing, its not short term, you lost near half in tax and other random spending and keeping up with colleagues spending. why did you leave finance and consulting?

Reply 99

TheRabbit

As a junior doctor I can definitely say the current outrage and looming strike action is not just about the money. At the end of an 83 hour week do I think I am working as well and making decisions as well as I was at the start of the week? Definitely not.

Every single day of the week there are junior doctors covering the wards I work on, (though admittedly I can't say the same for all the allied health professionals). The hospital doesn't shut down at weekends, and the data about increased deaths shows that people who are ill enough to end up going to hospital at the weekend (not as well as the weekday patient population when it comes to admissions) are more likely to die later in their stay in the hospital not at the weekend, which given they are more likely to be more ill is not a surprise.

We feel under attack, when often we are busting a gut to provide the best service we can.