If you thought the Sun couldn't get any worse...
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Original post by AlwaysWatching
It is an extremist position to take, especially when you don't know that it was anti-Islamic propaganda. It could have been Islamic propaganda. Or something entirely different.
What is anti-Islamic propaganda anyway? Criticism theologically?
It's statements like this that makes you an extremist. The opinion is of equal importance to the motive.
If you have a common understanding as to why these girls went, then you are being radicalised. You don't even need to be a "muslim" in the true sense to be radicalised either. Many who are drink, do drugs, are petty criminals etc etc who have never been to a mosque. Some have, some aren't.
What is anti-Islamic propaganda anyway? Criticism theologically?
It's statements like this that makes you an extremist. The opinion is of equal importance to the motive.
If you have a common understanding as to why these girls went, then you are being radicalised. You don't even need to be a "muslim" in the true sense to be radicalised either. Many who are drink, do drugs, are petty criminals etc etc who have never been to a mosque. Some have, some aren't.
Front pages like the sun's definitely counts as anti-islamic propaganda.
The opinion hasn't been properly defined and as such cannot be of equal importance to the motive.
That last point, is that an admission that terrorism has nothing to do with Islam?
Original post by James Milibanter
Front pages like the sun's definitely counts as anti-islamic propaganda.
The opinion hasn't been properly defined and as such cannot be of equal importance to the motive.
That last point, is that an admission that terrorism has nothing to do with Islam?
The opinion hasn't been properly defined and as such cannot be of equal importance to the motive.
That last point, is that an admission that terrorism has nothing to do with Islam?
No its not "anti-Islamic propaganda". It's unhelpful discrimination of Muslims. It's not a criticism of Islam or the idea of Islam.
And no it's not. Islamic Terrorism is complex. It involves Islamic teachings, politicised wahhabi Islam, western foreign policy, a disenfranchised youth rebelling against secularism, lack of employment, climate change and power politics between Arab countries.
Original post by AlwaysWatching
No its not "anti-Islamic propaganda". It's unhelpful discrimination of Muslims. It's not a criticism of Islam or the idea of Islam.
And no it's not. Islamic Terrorism is complex. It involves Islamic teachings, politicised wahhabi Islam, western foreign policy, a disenfranchised youth rebelling against secularism, lack of employment, climate change and power politics between Arab countries.
And no it's not. Islamic Terrorism is complex. It involves Islamic teachings, politicised wahhabi Islam, western foreign policy, a disenfranchised youth rebelling against secularism, lack of employment, climate change and power politics between Arab countries.
Original post by James Milibanter
When you look at the reasons why, it's not an extremist position to hold to feel sorry for three young girls who've been manipulated by ISIS leaders to take the trip. It's not a extremist position to feel sorry for those who've felt so victimised by anti-islamic propaganda that they've sought refuge in Syria. It's the motive that's more important than the opinion.
Indeed. Who couldn't feel sorry for the likes of Jihadi John? That gentle lamb who was so victimized in the UK by anti-Islamic sentiment that he felt he had to join ISIS in Syria and and become a poster pin up for brutality.
You are so far out in the left field you make Corbyn look sane. In fact, you'd make Red Ken blush. Do you not understand that these "poor souls" that went to join ISIS did so to actively and willingly participate in the brutal murder of many innocent people? Where is your moral compass at? Give you head a shake.
Original post by James Milibanter
"Muhammeds (PBUH) commands in wars"
The last word is the problem. Why sanction it?
Original post by James Milibanter
One of the ten commandments also says "do not kill" - does that mean Crusaders weren't Christians? People who eat meat cannot be Christians? (since they are indirectly killing animals)
The same with theft, adultery, someone who answers back/ disrespects their parents, does other things other than pray on Sunday (all ten commandments for Catholics)
They are Muslims. It's not an attack on Islam or treacherous to admit this. Whether they are good Muslims is a different question
Original post by Howard
Indeed. Who couldn't feel sorry for the likes of Jihadi John? That gentle lamb who was so victimized in the UK by anti-Islamic sentiment that he felt he had to join ISIS in Syria and and become a poster pin up for brutality.
You are so far out in the left field you make Corbyn look sane. In fact, you'd make Red Ken blush. Do you not understand that these "poor souls" that went to join ISIS did so to actively and willingly participate in the brutal murder of many innocent people? Where is your moral compass at? Give you head a shake.
You are so far out in the left field you make Corbyn look sane. In fact, you'd make Red Ken blush. Do you not understand that these "poor souls" that went to join ISIS did so to actively and willingly participate in the brutal murder of many innocent people? Where is your moral compass at? Give you head a shake.
Feeling sorry for the headcases who partake in such barbaric practices is not the same as condoning the barbaric practices or the people who do indeed partake.
Original post by AlwaysWatching
"Muhammeds (PBUH) commands in wars"
The last word is the problem. Why sanction it?
The last word is the problem. Why sanction it?
War has happened throughout time, in fact, find a point in history where that has been total peace in the world. Muslims understand that war will happen, but they believe that it should be undertook with certain rules.
Original post by James Milibanter
Muslims who join ISIS and kill, may not be good Muslims, but are quite clearly Muslims.
Anyone who thinks otherwise clearly needs to re-attend some basic secondary school level RE classes. They believe Muhammad is the prophet, submit to Allah, consider the Quran to be the verbatim word of God as revealed to the Islamic prophet Muhammad and follow the teachings and practices of Muhammad as recorded in traditional accounts called hadith.
Whether they are "good" Muslims is a different matter entirely
Original post by AlwaysWatching
Muslims who join ISIS and kill, may not be good Muslims, but are quite clearly Muslims.
Anyone who thinks otherwise clearly needs to re-attend some basic secondary school level RE classes. They believe Muhammad is the prophet, submit to Allah, consider the Quran to be the verbatim word of God as revealed to the Islamic prophet Muhammad and follow the teachings and practices of Muhammad as recorded in traditional accounts called hadith.
Whether they are "good" Muslims is a different matter entirely
Anyone who thinks otherwise clearly needs to re-attend some basic secondary school level RE classes. They believe Muhammad is the prophet, submit to Allah, consider the Quran to be the verbatim word of God as revealed to the Islamic prophet Muhammad and follow the teachings and practices of Muhammad as recorded in traditional accounts called hadith.
Whether they are "good" Muslims is a different matter entirely
However they don't. It's a death cult for the mentally ill and the irreversibly disenfranchised. I, among many muslims, refuse to acknowledge them as islamic. If I killed someone and said it was because I like John Cena, that would hold no implications on the practices of John Cena or his fans
Original post by James Milibanter
War has happened throughout time, in fact, find a point in history where that has been total peace in the world. Muslims understand that war will happen, but they believe that it should be undertook with certain rules.
War has happened throughout time, in fact, find a point in history where that has been total peace in the world. Muslims understand that war will happen, but they believe that it should be undertook with certain rules.
Why not just say killing is wrong, and there must be no wars ever. Just for clarity?
Asfor no wars - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%87atalh%C3%B6y%C3%BCk
They survived for 1500 years.
A muslim who breaks Muhammeds laws doesn't automatically become a non-muslim.
Killing is a sin in most modern religions. That still isn't an argument to say that those that kill are automatically not a Muslim/ Catholic etc. They are sinful I agree, but they are still a Muslim and we should respect them as Muslims, no matter how vile they might be. For example Bin Laden was buried roughly in accordance with Islamic law. He was a vile person of course, but we still treated him as a Muslim even in death, because that's how he self-perceived himself to be. He believed Muhammad is the prophet, submitted himself to Allah, considered the Quran to be the verbatim word of God as revealed to the Islamic prophet Muhammad and followed the teachings and practices of Muhammad as recorded in traditional accounts called hadith. He wasn't very good at following those laws, but he was still a Muslim.
It is also important to note that in order to sin, you must first follow a religious set of values. Otherwise you can not sin - it's a theological concept.
If you agree with me that they sinned, then you must first recognise that they are Muslims that follow Islamic principles.
Original post by James Milibanter
However they don't. It's a death cult for the mentally ill and the irreversibly disenfranchised. I, among many muslims, refuse to acknowledge them as islamic. If I killed someone and said it was because I like John Cena, that would hold no implications on the practices of John Cena or his fans
It's not though is it. There is no evidence that those who join are mentally ill. And there is no evidence so suggest that they are solely disenfranchised.
The person to judge is God/ Allah on judgement day. If they claim to be a Muslim and follow Islamic principles and ideology, then until they die and get judged then we should see them as Muslims.
Not burying a Catholic with Catholic rituals because he was a shop worker who did Sunday shifts is no different to not burying a Catholic with Catholic rituals because he was a murderer. They are both great sins. Lets see some perspective to this. Do not kill is less important than honouring your parents or keeping Sunday's a holy day. The latter two appear before the commandment of "Do not kill", therefore deliberately giving the impression that those two are more important than not killing. It's the same for Muslims. But would you really not bury a catholic worker who did the Sunday shift in accordance to his religion? No, of course not, the same applies to a murderer. You would bury both with accordance to Catholic values, because even though they sinned greatly, they are Catholics.
The exact same applies to Muslims.
They are (usually and mostly) Muslims. You saying that they aren't isn't going to solve anything.
Original post by James Milibanter
However they don't. It's a death cult for the mentally ill and the irreversibly disenfranchised. I, among many muslims, refuse to acknowledge them as islamic. If I killed someone and said it was because I like John Cena, that would hold no implications on the practices of John Cena or his fans
They litterally follow the Qu'ran to the letter. Everything they do is justified by it and to say otherwise is idiotic. In fact they have just as much validity as muslims as every other form.
Original post by James Milibanter
However they don't. It's a death cult for the mentally ill and the irreversibly disenfranchised. I, among many muslims, refuse to acknowledge them as islamic. If I killed someone and said it was because I like John Cena, that would hold no implications on the practices of John Cena or his fans
It would be different though if John Cena had incited hatred and told someone to kill. Islam has done this. As you have pointed out with the commands of war.
It depends how you interpret the Qur'an and bible, and which holy men you listen to. Goingto the Crusade analogy, contemporary theologians of the period justified the expeditions and occupation/ liberation (depending on who you ask) with theological arguments, directly quoted from the old testament, and mostly taken out of context. Which is exactly what ISIS do. But does that mean they are automatically not Christians because they've interpreted the old and new testament ambiguously? No, of course not. They perceived themselves to be doing God's work, and referenced/ interpreted theological text for spiritual justification. ISIS are no different.
Historians 1000 years from now will see ISIS and their relationship with Islam the same way in which modern historians, like Tyerman, Riley Smith, Asbridge, Barber et al (prominent Crusader historians) see the Crusades and its relationship with Christianity. They will see ISIS as being made up by Muslim fanatics, hell bent on imposing their interpretation of Islam, which comes directly from Islamic rituals and theological texts .
Does that mean they are true or representative? Nobody knows (I don't think they do though, lets be clear), other than Allah/ God. But until they have been judged, we should perceive them to be Muslims, because they follow Islamic theological texts/ laws, regardless of what we think about their interpretation of it. For all we know, they could be following the "correct" version, and the other 1.5 billion have got it wrong. We won't know until after death.
Original post by United1892
They litterally follow the Qu'ran to the letter. Everything they do is justified by it and to say otherwise is idiotic. In fact they have just as much validity as muslims as every other form.
Except this isn't true.
One example of this is, In the Quran it states that when you travel to foreign lands you must obey the law of that land.
Original post by James Milibanter
However they don't. It's a death cult for the mentally ill and the irreversibly disenfranchised. I, among many muslims, refuse to acknowledge them as islamic. If I killed someone and said it was because I like John Cena, that would hold no implications on the practices of John Cena or his fans
Original post by James Milibanter
As you can see my name is James,
From a very very young age I was revered by my peers, my teachers referred to me as a genius and was told that I would be the future Prime Minister.
However upon hitting the age of about 14, I guess I got complacent, began drinking, smoking (anything i could roll), and shagging (anyone that was willing). Before long I found myself alienated, and disenfranchised from society as a whole. I suppose the alienation was from an intellectual snobbery, I was smarter than everybody else and was never afraid to let them know. Don't get me wrong, I wasn't a nerd or anything, I could never fit in with them, nor could I fit in with anyone else properly. Everyone would be in their cliques and I would just roam about finding "temporary accommodation" within other friend groups, I tended to find girls easy, I found people in general rather easy, despite getting beaten up quite often the majority of the time I would talk my way out of one.
This carried on from the age of 14 until just after my 17th birthday, I still drink (a lot less than before but still more than any other 17 year old I know), smoke (just tobacco mostly) and am in a committed relationship and yet I still feel alienated. I guess that could be due to unemployment but I am at the moment very close to getting a 5 year course which would set me up for life. There are times where I miss the past, but then there are others when I am enveloped in regret. So, ask me anything.
From a very very young age I was revered by my peers, my teachers referred to me as a genius and was told that I would be the future Prime Minister.
However upon hitting the age of about 14, I guess I got complacent, began drinking, smoking (anything i could roll), and shagging (anyone that was willing). Before long I found myself alienated, and disenfranchised from society as a whole. I suppose the alienation was from an intellectual snobbery, I was smarter than everybody else and was never afraid to let them know. Don't get me wrong, I wasn't a nerd or anything, I could never fit in with them, nor could I fit in with anyone else properly. Everyone would be in their cliques and I would just roam about finding "temporary accommodation" within other friend groups, I tended to find girls easy, I found people in general rather easy, despite getting beaten up quite often the majority of the time I would talk my way out of one.
This carried on from the age of 14 until just after my 17th birthday, I still drink (a lot less than before but still more than any other 17 year old I know), smoke (just tobacco mostly) and am in a committed relationship and yet I still feel alienated. I guess that could be due to unemployment but I am at the moment very close to getting a 5 year course which would set me up for life. There are times where I miss the past, but then there are others when I am enveloped in regret. So, ask me anything.
If ISIS aren't Muslims, than neither are you. Unless the first bit in bold means you personally, along *insert generic statement* other Muslims.
Original post by James Milibanter
Feeling sorry for the headcases who partake in such barbaric practices is not the same as condoning the barbaric practices or the people who do indeed partake.
Hair splitting. Pathetic.
Original post by AlwaysWatching
If ISIS aren't Muslims, than neither are you. Unless the first bit in bold means you personally, along *insert generic statement* other Muslims.
Not a muslim
Original post by Howard
Hair splitting. Pathetic.
In what way is saying "it's a shame that these people go and partake in such horrid rituals" the same as saying "These people are right in going and joining in with these horrid rituals"?
Original post by James Milibanter
Except this isn't true.
One example of this is, In the Quran it states that when you travel to foreign lands you must obey the law of that land.
One example of this is, In the Quran it states that when you travel to foreign lands you must obey the law of that land.
However if you are born in a country then you are not travelling to foreign lands and due to ISIS being in a constant state of war with everyone, its not valid.
This article pretty much sums it up
Rupert Murdoch is the only person fighting for the average person's rights, long may he rein!
Original post by AlwaysWatching
It was implied in question 6. 20% of them do have sympathy to those young people (jihadists) to join fighters in Syria.
It was poorly worded, but it still 20% of Muslims who have some sort of sympathy.
It was poorly worded, but it still 20% of Muslims who have some sort of sympathy.
Except "fighting in Syria" is not equated with "fighting for IS" which is what the story is implying.
There seems to be all these buzzwords flying around and negative connotations attached to words that people don't seem to fully understand.
Take "Islamists" as an example - It's used to paint a very broad brush stroke of groups that would like Islam to be the framework of a nation but in recent months, it's become almost a dirty word given it's association with IS.
Take "Jihadists" as another example - The rhetoric at the moment is that it is used exclusively for IS.
However, the more correct term to use would be "Mujahideen" (i.e: those who fight in the Jihad). But we can't label IS "Mujahideen" because it's connotations are the Afghan resistance to the Soviet Occupation or the travel of Muslims to Bosnia in the late 90's, which we regard as a "good thing".
I mean, what does "Jihadists" even mean? Does it mean the same thing as "Mujahideen" but in English?
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